Sunday trade moves are Satan's work says cleric

SATAN is behind efforts to scrap Sunday trading laws, a Guernsey minister has claimed.

No spawn of the evil one: Deputy Mike Hadley yesterday rejected claims by a religious group locally that attempts to deregulate Sunday trading were undoubtedly the work of Satan that had to be opposed to avoid the wrath of God. (Picture by Adrian Miller, 1279192)
No spawn of the evil one: Deputy Mike Hadley yesterday rejected claims by a religious group locally that attempts to deregulate Sunday trading were undoubtedly the work of Satan that had to be opposed to avoid the wrath of God. (Picture by Adrian Miller, 1279192)

SATAN is behind efforts to scrap Sunday trading laws, a Guernsey minister has claimed.

Mr W. R. Chapman, from La Villiaze Evangelical Church, has written to all deputies objecting to Deputy Mike Hadley’s requete seeking the postponement of Sunday trading laws for a 12-month trial.

The minister, who did not wish to give his first name, said one day of rest was required ‘under the authority of God’ and that ignoring this would lead to ‘an increase in the island’s problems and most surely incur God’s further wrath and condemnation’.

‘For these basic reasons we believe that the present situation on the island is already in contravention of the work of God and that any further erosion of godly laws will only increase the wrath of God against us,’ the letter said.

‘Satan is without a doubt behind these efforts to further do away with any semblance of Christian righteousness and we must stand and oppose it.’

Deputy Hadley yesterday denied that he was a servant of Satan.

Comments for: "Sunday trade moves are Satan's work says cleric"

Eric

"Deputy Hadley yesterday denied that he was a servant of Satan."

Genius, give the author a medal!

LdnGsy

Best front page since fish-gate, had me in stitches!

Guernsey Girl

I am a Christian and honestly I don't think God is bothered about whether we open shops on Sunday. For someone to say that satan is behind Sunday trading makes me so angry as it is a ridiculous statement and it gives Christians a bad name. I think it would be a great shame for Guernsey to trade on Sundays. It is something that makes us different from the United Kingdom. I am proud to be a Guernsey girl and I don't want this beautiful island to become a miniture version of England.

Hmm...

I don't think it was actually claimed that Deputy Hadley is a servant of Satan.

I think there is probably a considerable difference between saying that the plans ultimately have a "blessing from Satan" if you will, and saying that the person proposing this is actually in league with the devil himself

Gsyman

What a load of pseudo-religious clap-trap.

Hurfington

There's nothing pseudo about it.

Robert Canning

It's genuine religious clap-trap.

Gsyman

Gulp! it's for real then...

SARNIA EXPAT

This is Guernsey Moderators - are you ready?

Forum Members - are you ready?

Avengers - are you ready?

wait for it - wait for it -

and they're off.......................

Peter

Oh, so does that mean that all small shop owners and their employees, petrol stations etc who are working on Sunday are in fact ultimately employees of Satan?

Blimey makes working on a Sunday more interesting!

Just Saying

Would Satan really pay Sunday rates of pay though? I would have thought he would have been more of a 'minimum wage' sorta chap.

NastyTeach

Don't be daft! As the ultimate in evil he wouldn't even consider paying minimum wage rates; since when has he stuck to rules?

soph

What a strong Statement from a religious person

Not a fan of Sunday trading, but must admit I do occasionally shop those currently open for Sunday (usually as forgot the milk!)

Satan does not come into it, that is a twisted excuse. He lives in us all, some release him and wreak havoc. Most don't.

mrspinthepantry

Putting this on the front page is an open invite to ridicule the mentally ill.

We shouldn't mock the afflicted, I hope given time that Mr W. R. Chapman finds the medical help he so obviously needs.

Unless Satan is also in charge of mental health care in Guernsey.......................?

Cher Eugene

"Unless Satan is also in charge of mental health care in Guernsey…………………..?"

A chilling thought, but kilts are chilly.

A le Page

Seems like a dangerous comment. We'll be burning witches next...

Le Viaer

Satan is Hebrew for an adversary. Which one does he mean? So a day of rest for all eh?

So God`s wrath will be directed at hospital staff, the lifeboat volunteers, bus drivers, electriciy company employees, the airlines, etc etc etc!!!

I work on a a sunday and it still feels a special day, but leave the pulpit nonsense out.

Mr X

Matthew 12:10-12: ...and a man with a shrivelled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, ‘Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?’He said to them, ‘If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.’

Ray

Mr X

Good quote,but it still comes down to each individual's definition of what is good

The Pastor's argument appears to be that shopping can wait until the Monday but in your quoted example couldn't the magical repair of the shrivelled hand also wait until the Monday?

Mr. X

That's clearly not what it's saying. It's saying that you can do good (ie. heal someone or minister them) on the Sabbeth so it is fine for nurses or vicars to work on Sunday.

bob

If Sunday is the day of rest then how come churches run 3-4 services not much of a rest day if you ask me, pot kettle springs to mind.

Steve D

Remember when you were a kid? And you couldn't stay up Saturday night because you had to get up early for Church. And you had to wear your good clothes and couldn't play in them. And you had to sit through a boring service or Sunday school. Then you got home and your Mom was going nuts trying to prepare a Sunday dinner, and you had to sit stiffly through it because Sunday dinner is supposed to be "special." Now THAT was the work of Satan. And people like Chapman wonder why people don't go to church any more.

Ray

Steve D

I remember those horrible mornings at Sunday school all too well.Blazing hot sun / perfect beach weather for the other kids, and me in my besties stuck indoors

Sunday school picnics were OK though

I often used to wonder if I was being punished but now I BELIEVE

Yep I believe I was packed off to Sunday school so my parents could fornicate in peace

West

Ray

Your posts are classic. Please don't stop. I will be smiling all day

forest

Fornication on a sunday!! sounds like the devils work to me Ray.

John

Some people do talk such a load of rubbish, we are not ruled by your god but by the people of Guernsey. Everyone is allowed an opinion but come on get a life.

Sarnia

Ha ha!

Thank you for this story, it brightened up my lunch hour on an otherwise dull day!

Dark ages

Religious intolerance is the cause of most of the worlds troubles........... Can't we just accept that not everybody believes the story that you believe and therefore entitled to live another way?

Toby

Why stop there ?

Let's campaign to shut down Seafresh ( it is against the teachings of the Bible to eat shellfish ) - come to think of it we should ban ormering completely ....

Stop the odious practice of restaurants selling roast pork as part of their Sunday carvery ...... And remove sausages from kids meals everywhere ...

Also close down any clothes shop selling wares made from a mixture of fabrics

Ban all menstruating women from attending church - and any men who may have had contact with them on the Sabbath ( which incidentally is Saturday - so we better move to ban Saturday trading too .....

Or am I not supposed to take all the teachings of the Bible strictly and literally - just the ones that the established religions wish to impose upon me regardless of my own beliefs .....

AK

Well said Toby,

It's about time man stopped taking these readings so literally - they are nothing more than a general guide of living.

They were written when man was divided between general savagery and civilization.

It's time they were placed in a museum of the unevolved man...they've done enough damage.

notsostoopid

Can I stop laughing yet? Hope I can stop before the weekly witch burnings on Sunday. Didn't the church invent the Satan anyway??

Scarlett

...with regards to your last remark, I think it may have been the other way round, notso.....

King Maker

Oh dear - the religious nutters have outed themselves. We wonder why life was so horrific in the dark and middle ages, it was down to people being tortured and burnt at the stake for wishing to live a normal existence. Problem is if it doesnt suit the zealots then your in trouble.

South cliff's, feel free to use them as a launch pad!

Ed

I would like this man to produce some fully credible evidence substantiating this theory. I hope this will lead to a debate between, creationists, pseudo-scientists and Darwinsts ...

King Maker

Mr W R Chapman, and the rest of your Evangelical loon's, your laughable if your serious - 'demons be gone' etc.

cyril serbant

oh dear.

okay so in my view the whole Sunday Trading issue is a matter of freedom - if you want to open your business then you can and if you want to shop there then you can. it's simple.

the same applies to church - you can choose to attend or not. you can also choose to rest one day in seven or not.

at the same time there are decent arguments on both sides but deputy hadley having to deny that he is a servant of satan will do more damage to the religious claim than anything else.

when will people get it into their heads that their religion is meaningless if forced on others. again it's about choice as there is nothing holy about not going to the shops if you don't even have the option.

tell me mr chapman, if you are on the breadline is it more holy to have malnourished kids than it is to pick up some extra hours working on the shop till on a sunday?

Errrmmm

Does satan have a valid right to work document or is he open market?

King Maker

Satan is bound to be English - as Guernsey has changed due to English Satan's etc. etc. twoddle!

Ray

What's the parking like around this church?

I'm seriously thinking of popping in on his next working day ( Sunday!)as I have never seen a 17th century fire and brimstone service except in horror films

Is there a minimum age limit for attendees?

Will this new 'enlightened' States be swayed by this man? By the way is he the same person shown on Wednesday's Channel TV news ( the caption gave his name as Yerby)who was spouting on about bad angels and although admitting that while they could not actually be seen with the naked eye they were nevertheless carrying out their evil business amongst the weaker members of our society

Would Chapman or Yerby turn away the offer of assistance from an Ambulance driver or a Nurse on a Sunday or has God given these good angels special dispensation?

Funny farm

I used to work with one of these characters and I can confirm that he was, indeed, away with the fairies. He was obsessed with Oliver Cromwell and was always going on about him, not a particularly good idea when there are Irish people in the room.

Martin

Ray. Parking could be a problem, especially if others are tempted to go along on Sunday as I am, but you could always park at the little chapel and walk up the hill. There is a helpful little map on their web page.

There are 2 services on Sundays 11.00 and 18.00 hrs (11.00 suits me best and in one of the testimonials it says everyone will be welcomed with open arms,sounds good to me)

A quick visit to the church web page will answer many of your questions. In fact they have had 22,785 visits to their site since 1 January 2004, wouldn't it be great if 23,000 visits could be achieved by Sunday.

As a practising Pastafarian I don't know if I should wear full Pirate regalia or simply wear my less formal pasta strainer head gear? One thing is certain my son will definitely want to wear his pirate kit!

Unsure whether Walter should be addressed as Walter or Mr Chapman or pastor? Probably best if I call him Walter and he calls me Martin but I will ask my son to call him Mr Chapman to start with.

Donkey Girl

They have a web page?

So they're not living completely in the dark ages then.

Scarlett

yes, it's called 'youllallburninhellifyoushoponasunday.com' with actual testimonials from people who are currently roasting for that very reason, so I for one believe it.

jamie

Does their webpage shut down on a Sunday ?

jsimpson

This guy needs to up his medication!!!! What a load of rubbish. Just go away you silly little man.

kevin

There I knew it all along Martino and Ray are doing Satan's work for him. I always knew there was something strange about those two what wanting Sunday opening and all that.

But seriously, what a daft story to make the front page!

Satan

Cool, my first ever headline. Today is a good day!

Robert

Come on now Satan, you're just being modest.

Julie

Well if that what being a "practicing" Christian does to you, you can stick it where the sun don't shine!

Overcast

And we all thought GSYFUTU was dead!

Prev

That's exactly that I thought!

I've asked my best friend to buy me a copy - I'm going to frame it. Best Guernsey Press headline ever. You guys should make comemorative copies for Christmas.

Sugared Brazil Nut

Is this another GP typo error and the story should in fact refer to Santa?

Ray

Satan / Santa

Like :0)

slep

As a Christian myself I`m disappointed that such an idiot should write such stuff that disgraces the Church by telling us what we should and shouldn`t do. Far better would be to point us to the hope of salvation in Jesus rather than coming out with such negative tripe!

Ed

This is just like the Middle Ages. The only difference being that the dogmatic nature of the church doesn't have an impact upon the development of scientific knowledge. Religion is most indeed "The opium of the people" as it acts as a narcotic- such zealots get intoxicated by their narrow-minded, backward philosophies and thus lack the capacity to understand the reality of the universe.

Then again, the plethora of attitudes within society makes it a rich, vibrant place in which, and thus it's fine to hold such sentiments- so long as they do not restrict the scope of others.

markB

Absolutely ED....with you on that one!

bcb

There are many intelligent people who understand the workings of the universe very well but still believe in some kind of creation.

You can still believe in creation or something outside of the physical universe without being religious or in this guys case a nuter :).

Bert

Down with this sort of thing.

sarnia expat

Careful now....!

Dot Comma

Beat me to it sarnia expat.

But tell me, does he get his lad out?

Dot Comma

Careful now.

Gilthead

Ray - if you go you'll be treated to something like this:

The book of Bullshitius, chapter 7 verse 9

"...And spotteth twice they the camels before the third hour, and so, the Midianites went forth to Ram Gilead in Kadesh Bilgemath, by Shor Ethra Regalion, to the house of Gash-Bil-Bethuel-Bazda, he who brought the butter dish to Balshazar and the tent peg to the house of Rashomon, and there slew they the goats, yea, and placed they the bits in little pots..."

All very relavent I'm quite sure.

Science!

I work on a Sunday in the emergency services, should I demand that I no longer wish to work Sundays, because some fictional character told me to. If you couldn't guess I'm not a believer, however I never force that on anyone or try to convert anyone to the dark side!! So it would be nice if religious types stopped forcing it on me. Im fed up of having to abide by religious laws. And Jesus said on to the world, let there be shopping on Sunday, ye need a new hat!!

bcb

He`s not fictional so get your facts right.

I saw him in a film called the life of Brian.

Billythefish

Oh dear.....

Well done Mr Chapman. What a way to drag back the work of the church a few miles. It's efforts like this that places a barrier between the secular world and those of faith. And to refuse to even state your name...

Whether you like it or not this is a secular island. You are not going to sway any arguments based solely on matters of faith, particularly when they are so clumsily put accross.

KEITH BROOKFIELD

This stupid man has done all of us that want freedom of choice to open or close a lot of good because anyone with his mentality will be laughed at,I would think all his followers of that ( so called church)must be truly shocked and if they are not just goes to prove how they live in their own little world.Ah well at least they have the choice to go to that church on a sunday,but he wishes to deny me my freedom of where I want to go on a sunday,or retailers the choice to open or close.

Ed

This must be a record- the article has only been out for a few hours and it's already the third most commented.

Joe Broughton

Well, what next?! I am well aware of the ambivalence many Islanders feel towards the Sunday Trading laws being changed and appreciate the reasons why they may well feel opposed to them changing, be these religious or personal. However, to say that Satan (The Devil), is behind this is quite frankly rather risible! If we are to call a spade a spade, then we will perhaps acknowledge that, whilst many families do spend Sunday together, not all who live in the Island either do now or wish to do so in the future. It seems to me that this really is a storm in a tea cup and there is the risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if we're not careful. The church are entitled, in a democratic society, to cite their views and to have these views respected; having said that, mixing religion with economics is not perhaps the most appopriate thing to do and is clearly causing much contention around the Island. I am myself studying Theology at university, and whilst we acknowledge the validity of religious experiences and revelation we have never covered Satan in any depth. For a good reason: God can, it is said, act in the world and nature. But Satan? Really?! Anyway, my personal opinion is that the trading laws should stay as they are, after all, people have the whole week and Saturday to shop why on earth do they need Sunday to do this as well?! Also, one has to consider the needs of the workers, why should they have to work on Sundays merely for the delection of the islanders? I would say the status quo is fine as it is and should be kept that way. We must acknoledge and respect the Church's views which are based on the premises of their faith, which is fundamentally important to them, but perhaps avoid pasting overdramatic messages on the front of the Press! There are after all, far more pressing issues to be adressed within society such as how to eradicate social inequality, how to empower women into senior business roles. Perhaps we should spend time dealing with pertinent issues, rather than getting hot under the collar about economics!

John

Before we throw the baby out with the bathwater or get hot under the collar about a storm in a teacup you should all ask yourselves some fundamental questions:

Guernsey is fundamentally a Christian island hence the restrictions on Sunday trading. What happens if we die and find that the Jews were right all along and it is Saturday when we should be resting? Or the Moslems are top dogs and Friday is the day?

We should be even handed and ban trading on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. It won't affect business as we can buy everything we need between Monday and Thursday and everyone, including the atheists can enjoy an extra long weekend.

Paul

Oh well..........better the devil know !!

Vannilla

And I thought all the religious crazy people were standing for the US senate!!

Nige

Vic's been worryingly quiet on this one

PLP

It is a little surprising as this kind of thing is usually the proverbial red rag to a bull. I wonder if Vic has decided there's no need for him to waste his precocious talents on such a story, as Mr Chapman is doing a sterling job of making his points for him.

Much as I like to "fight the good fight" with Vic, this time it would be difficult to argue - indeed much to my dismay I would probably end up agreeing with him....to a point.

PLP

Reading the full article it's sadly ironic that Deputy Hadley (an atheist so I'm told) is more in line with New Testament teachings on the Sabbath than a Christian minister.

Jesus arguably got more annoyed with the Pharisees about Sabbath observance than anything else - and the NT epistles teach that since his death and resurrection, issues of the Sabbath / food / drink / clothing are now matters of individual conscience. Indeed Christians are taught quite clearly NOT to judge one another over them.

If Mr Chapman wants to observe his "Sabbath" like the Haredim that's fine, but don't dare threaten the wrath of God upon those who don't. Funnily enough, when we visited Israel a few years ago we were warned that in certain areas of Jerusalem we'd be stoned if we drove a car down the street on the Sabbath. Perhaps Mr Chapman should consider moving to one of those areas, he might be more comfortable there.

Zab

I got stoned driving at Perelle one Tuesday but it was a spring tide, a mate of mine claims he was stoned in Holland for entering a cafe on a Sunday.

brubru

Hmmm why has no one asked any members of GFC for there equally wel respected opinion.

What do they think of Sunday trading....''Well it will give the fans another chance to meet the players as they do ordinary things that celebs also need to do'' It would be a great photo opportunity!

Ed

I have decided to alter my view somewhat. Religion only becomes "The opium of the people" when it has the potential to interfere substantially with other affairs and generate ill feelings accordingly.

In abstract, this proposition may operate successfully but it may be more problematic in reality. In order to best remedy the situation, perhaps the Christian article of faith and other religious doctrines ought to be aligned with the present day. I do not know precisely what ought to be done, but perhaps there are some parties out there that could collaborate to produce a religious paradigm that corresponds with the workings of modern society- that may well serve as a panacea to the consternation as well as the practical issues that arise when ecclesiastical matters converge with temporal issues.

Jethro

Vic where are you?

Sam

Halleluiah ! Halleluiah !

Nathan

I'm pretty sure that working a 5 day week is Satan's work too. If Mr Chapman is advocating a four day week that doesn't include Mondays, then I think we should consider his argument.

Honestly though... There should be some protection for the employee, to ensure they are not persecuted for not working a Sunday if that is what they wish. I do not feel they should have to provide notice for such a decision to their employer, (although I've seen 3 weeks mentioned - which I think is too much). As long as this is provided I think we'll be fine.

Perhaps the same consideration should go into rights for people choosing not to work any other day of the week in lieu of Sundays.

pastafarian

As hilarious as this front page today was don't forget these people have children who they brainwash with this crap. Wonder if social services keeps an eye on them?

Bev Hill

Mr Chapman obviously needs to lie down before he hurts himself.

As I do not "live under the authority of God" I have no need to fear incurring his wrath.

Ed

Some of these comments are of tantamount ludicritiy to the claim that was made. It's time to drop these fatuous remarks and replace them with more sophisticated, civil ideas. Take a look at post 41- it proposes a novel solution to the issues encountered when the interests of different parties converge.

Ed

This is the usual 'Ed' by the way. For some reason my gravatar keeps changing.

Thisisguernsey

Ed,

The Gravatar is dependent upon a user's email address. The email address you have entered for some of your comments has been different to what would appear to be your usual address by a single character, indicating that you have mis-typed it on some occasions.

markB

ED .. Come on mate get it together!

Donkey Girl

Can we assume that Mr Chapman issues his sermons in the dark on a Sunday with no heating in his church?

Or is he a hypocrite who's quite happy to make use of electricity, oil, gas, water, telephone etc without thinking that this is also supplied courtesy of people working on a Sunday.

He presumably goes home to a roast dinner cooked using electricity or gas after his sermon too.

Junior

Of more concern is whether he issues them to an empty church or are there others on the Island who go along to listen to this rubbish every week?

Royston Gauno

Sunday trading will lead to Salmonella and Leprosy ..

Cobo Martin

Do you realise Reverened (not that you deserve to be called Reverened) that those of us who believed that Sunday Trading should be let alome for family reasons, (nothing to do with politics or religion), you have set us back.

I now imagine that through your "fire and brimstone" bigotry, you have now alienated those who were ambavilalent to Sunday Opening.

To wish me and my family or anyone else on this planet "condemnation" shows me that religion has no place in my life probably not yours either.

Mike Hadley's "Christmas" (If Christianity is part of your ethos, I want no part of it) has come early.

You silly boy. Now go to bed and apologise to those who have spent their lives devoted to God, his son and the trilogy. You are not a Reverened person.

heavens_above

Dougal: God, I've heard about those cults Ted. People dressing up in black and saying Our Lord's going to come back and save us all.

Ted: No, Dougal, that's us. That's Catholicism.

Dougal: Oh right.

John

The reason Sunday trading must be allowed is that it works for ecomomic reasons. It is a part of modern life. Many people work long hours during the week and then are expected to rush around like mad on a Saturday to cram their shopping in with busy roads and no parking! It just silly not to spread this shopping rush over 2 days. The local businesses would benefit greatly. I am often not bothered with the mad rush and hassle of Saturday shopping and buy direct online from UK.

I would like to support the local businesses more and would like to do this on a Sunday.

Those worried about the poor Sunday workers must realise that local businesses will go bust if they cant compete with the Internet.

Anyway Sunday workers get Mondays off instead so at least they too can get their shopping done locally!

j

I don't get this "it will mean more money for local businesses" comment

Are we all magically going to have more money to spend now the shops are open seven days a week?

I can't see myself needing extra food or clothes because of it.

Surely it means that wage costs will go up and the amount of money taken on a saturday will go down.

Glanzstar

No but if you think about it, the people working Sundays, will have money to spend on other days.

People that dont work sundays will redistribute their existing disposable income

People who are now working sundays who were not previously will gain an extra days wages to spend

Terry Langlois

but if the Sunday shoppers are just redistributing their disposable income, and the Sunday workers are getting more wages, who is paying for those wages?

oh yes, the retailers, out of those huge margins and huge profits that they make

if they are struggling to compete with the internet now, cutting their margins will not help

Economist

Two words: the multiplier.

Did no-one study economics?

John

J

The point is I would spend more money locally rather than online, it's not about me doing my shopping on a Sunday for things thaI buy during the week locally. It's about local businesses winning back trade from online UK suppliers!

Here's a list of shops I would like to visit on a Sunday rather than online-

Clothing

Electronics

Boating

House renovation

In addition would be more likely to take my family out to lunch in Town if I had an opportunity to do a bit of shopping

valeite

I went to Sunday school and did not care much for it at all, the best part was being able to play on the trampoline afterwards. I do not go to church, but what Sunday school did teach me was to be a nice person and I do try to be nice to people in my day to day life, I do not think you have to go to church to do that. I really do think Mr. Chapman has made a mockery of church goers,and has certainly not helped the cause. A stupid statement if ever there was one.

Sarnia

A 'testimony' from a member of the congregation of the La Villiaze Evangelical Church:

http://www.lavecc.net/rlepage.html

May we rest our case!

born again Atheist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E

I rest my case....get thee behind me jesus

Kilroy

What is a church anyway?

Hyde Park Corner with a roof!

DeadLenny

Yeah, I'm guessing there's not a lot of Jews or Jehovah's Witnesses in Guernsey... Seems like a strange thing to get worked up about.

(But what do I know? I'm from California, and --- due to my work schedule, take communion and attend services at my (Episcopal) church on Thursday evenings. Maybe it's the devotion, and not the day.)

Zab

That was what swayed the Ratepayers fundnding the Parish Church debate, what a narrow escape for us all.

davy_b

According to the bible, God killed 2,391,421 people and Satan only killed 10.

Anyone think that we could be following the wrong guy?

born again Atheist

Well done Rev Chapman! You have made our case as atheists so much easier.

Anyone who can read the old testiment and then say that "god is love" is a pretty poor judge of character.

All I can say is "thank god I'm an atheist". lol

Wake up Guernsey bin all religion now! Save sundays for sex, beer and football.

King Maker

And Rugby if you dont mind. Also we can start a God Botherers hounding group and drive them into the sea - bloke on a cloud with a beard! what a crock!

Millions of children dying from preventable diseases - suppose they are being punished are they?

I Love Trees

Please someone get Mr Chapman the help he so desperately deserves. Every second Mr Chapman is having another backdated and skewed thought. Just £5 a month can keep him on enough of his "special smarties" to keep these thoughts locked away.

Please donate all you can to this worthy cause.

Thank-you.

ernie le tissier

Someone needs to ask John Gollop if he is the Servant of Santa.

Pete

Shock, horror a member of the Christian faith still believes in Satan in this day and age. Derision, jokes, sarcastic posts abound of how a christian today can hold such views, surely this is the stuff of extreme Islam.

But no here in quiet little Guernsey you see the usualy quiet and hidden face of profound unbending religious belief that is still held by so many on the island.

Here you see the face of the so-called silent majority for many years held back any changes in the licensing laws, mock them if you will but they have more power than you imagine.

hobbesvlocke

What possessed him to write such a letter?

born again atheist

I know.......and doesn't he look as if he is possessed by the prince of darkness himself?

Heggarty

I spoke to Vic G last night....I don't think he would mind if I repeated the conversation. He said Paul Le Page had it right...it's an own goal for the Christians and it makes little sense to highlight what has already been highlighted...he also added that he thought Jesus would be turning in his grave with a follower like Wally Chapman.

Robert Canning

"The minister, who did not wish to give his first name ..." I looked it up, and it's Walter. Perhaps he's Wally to friends.

s daubert

As an ex pat I love Guernsey but not what it is becoming. One of Gods commandmants is- keep the sabbeth Holy you have six days to work this is ommiting the esential services.

Matthew Hopkins

It's a pity the states deputies voted themselves a pay rise. With that money we could have appointed a witch finder general who could roam the parishes in search of the agents of satan. Maybe we could have burnings at a stake in town and some good old fashioned drowning in the reservoir, no need to go shopping on a Sunday with all that entertainment.

Olli

All this talk has brought to light another issue that must surely be considered:

The Villiaze church, and its minister, wrote a private letter to all the deputies of The States, asking them not to support a relaxation of the Sunday trading laws, and giving their own reasons as to why they think it would be wrong.

They did NOT launch some kind of media campaign against the proposals, nor against Deputy Hadley. They have NOT written to the press asking them to publish a story about how they intend to invoke God's wrath on the island because the population wants to shop on Sundays. They are certainly NOT trying to force their views on the readers of the press.

The issue here is, the church wrote a private letter expressing their own concerns about Sunday trading. In what system can it ever be acceptable for a politician or a civil servant (for it must surely have been a member of one of these parties) to leak that private correspondence to the media? And furthermore, who will feel comfortable writing to their deputies from now on, knowing that said deputies may choose simply to publicise that letter island-wide, if it suits their own ends?

markB

Good Point Olli...But who Said it was a private letter?

Terry Langlois

very good questions Olli.

But do we know whether or not Mr Chapman sent a copy to the Press?

Ray

Good point Olli but leaks have been going on for ages .. even before this new open Government idea was invented

Perhaps it's a good thing .. who knows how much secretive influence the Church or prominent businessmen with an agenda have had on States decisions over the years?

Sara Thompson

Someone's had their cage rattled, haven't they?

Not happy the extreme views have been leaked?

Maybe the Press should be investigating this extreme church and its followers.

http://www.thisisguernsey.com/latest/2010/03/17/gay-paedophile-comments-could-see-gp-investigated/

Martin

Sara Thompson

The preacher on Sunday 11 November at both the 11.00 and 18.00 services is somebody called Paul Williams, the GP in your link was a Dr Paul Williams, small world hey? Wonder if they are same person? Hmm?

The church's web page is doing a great job getting their message across to a wider audience, its had 317 hits since 18.00 Thursday night.

Anyway back to more pressing issues, pirate regalia?head gear? pirate regalia? head gear? decisions, decisions!

cyril serbant

"They are certainly NOT trying to force their views on the readers of the press."

...erm yes they are. They think that Sunday trading is a sin against God and are trying force this view on the readers of the Press and the rest of the Island.

Pastafarian

Ollie as you yourself say in your comment the letter sent by one of the members of the Villaize Sect was to all states members who represent and make decision for ALL islanders ( incl. Guernsey Press readers) - so I am afraid that they DO try force their views onto everybody and try to influence law making.

There isn't really any point to have a serious discussion about the matter as the contents of the letter is so ridiculous & comical - but I have a feeling you are one of the children that I mentioned in my previous comment that have grown up with their mind filled & force fed such sad doctrine. Ollie move over to the light side- you have nothing to fear .

merdrignac

If you want to see if people want to shop on Sunday, just look at the numbers of people that shop on Sunday. Self evident!

kat

The end of double time for many.. the end of being able to earn a little extra if YOU want to.

The end of having a Sunday when you can go window shopping with out feeling you have to go and buy something to help out the struggling shop owners who will have to pay bigger overheads to keep up with other shops who are open. the end of the road being quieter.

ther eis more to life than shopping!

thistle

for goodness sake certain shops in guernsey have been opening on sundays for years and the owners havent been struck down by the wrath of god..there are families who cant shop together on any other day of the week so should they be denied that pleasure because a hellfire and brimstone preacher thinks sunday trading is the devils work..does that same man not work on a sunday..what would happen if this idiot broke his leg on a sunday .would he wait until monday morning to be taken to the peh to have it looked at ..i think not..it is my opinion that sunday trading will do no harm to guernsey and people should be free to shop when they want to.

bcb

Good points Thistle and if bad people go to hell then whats bad about that anyway? after all doesn`t satan love bad people so is going to take care of his flock? it will be one big party :).

And what would happen to the rev`s soul if he died on a sunday? does God work sundays?.

PJ

I see the Muratti is being played on a Sunday next year, and the officials who will be paid will be dressed in black. The work of Satan maybe?

Pete

Thanks Olli, a private letter or the so-called silent magority working behind the scenes again out of the public eye.

Andy

It's ok, no chance of this happening as Satan was last seen moving away from the island due to not being able to afford a house at Guernsey prices !!!

Les Pets

I hope this religious nutter hasn't got any kids. Thought brainwashing was a thing baddies use but no doubt he's filling heads with his own take on religion(whatever that means in a modern educated world)

Sense

I am currently living off Island and the city I'm in has just made Sunday trading legal, before only certain shops could open and then that was only 2 weekends a month, jusy slightly different to the Guernsey law.

So if a city can do it why can't Guernsey, why will Guernsey feel the wrath of God and a city not? This argument is a joke, everyone is entitled to their beliefs but these should not be used to drive political or economic decisions.

I think there should be the freedom of choice, if a shop keeper wants to open and get get staff to do so without forcing staff to do so then they should have the right do to so). Though this should not lead to more foreign staff getting the work at a wage below the average for the job they are performing.

Ray

None of this will make a jot of difference on 21/12/2012 when the world will end

Scarlett

Fantastic! We'll all save a fortune on Christmas presents...just composing the email now, 'dear loved one, you won't be getting a present this year, as the world will be ending xx'

vic gamble

...well I better wish you Merry Xmas now Ray...no-one tells me anything around here and we had a bar-b-q arranged and everything for 22nd December....

Sarnia expat

I have already asked for my wages to be paid earlier in the month so i can have a goood old blow out before the apocalypse....

Martino

'If a man discovers on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father’s doorstep.. '

It says so in Deuteronomy 22, 13-21 someone pointed out to me. Be good to get the take on this from La Villiaze or perhaps PLP could give us a more considered opinion?

PLP

Martino - Depending on how interested you are if you're interested in theology I will try and dig out a "plain English" explanation of what the Bible teaches on the relationship between Christians and Old Testament laws.

In brief though, the Bible teaches that in the same way the Sabbath is no longer binding for Christians, since the death and resurrection of Jesus (who kept the OT law perfectly) this Old Testament law (and the punishments therein) is no longer binding for Christians either.

Martino

Thanks PLP that's good enough for me.

I have no doubt, though, that some of your fellow Christians who are OTT in their literal following of these OT edicts will dispute your theology and say they all STILL have to be followed to the letter. In which case will any of them be brave or foolish enough to come onto these threads to justify the stoning of non virgin brides?

Sugared Brazil Nut

I think that modern day theology teaches something along the lines of " Let he who seeks to have his head kicked in by his irate father in law even think about casting the first stone".

Hope so anyway.

PLP

Martino you have hit the nail squarely on the head my friend.

It's actually not "modern day theology" at all. What frustrates me about this is that a significant percentage of the New Testament is dedicated to this very issue. It explains clearly time and time again that thanks to Jesus, Old Testament laws are NOT binding for Christians! Jolly good thing too - if they were, there wouldn't be many people left alive, including Christians. I suppose it's one way to reduce the population.

The early church had a similar problem but in those days the big issue wasn't Sabbath trading but circumcision. Some were saying that new Christian converts should "snip the tip" to join the club, as commanded in the Law of Moses. The rather succinct response noted in the Bible to this group was they should go the whole hog and chop the full set off!

vannilla

NEVER has a GP article sparked such sheer brilliance by commentators -many LMAO moments. now can we just get on with it and give sunday opening a one year trial.

Donkey's Wotsits

You may take religion out of society but as a Christian, I know in whom I believe.

L

The work of satan for goodness sake mr chapman what a thing to come out with imean dosent he care that hes making a fool of himself.Stop preaching and live and let live.Get a life will you bringing religon into it is totally wrong.why do so called christians think they are above all.Stop living in the past times change.

Betty Swollocks

Surely Satan should concentrate on global war, famine and pestilence and not be distracted by something as trivial and Sunday trading . Is there someone I can complain to about this?

Questionner

Interesting. One wonders how these people get to Church as strictly speaking the Bible outlaws travel on the Sabbath.

According to Scripture the operation of a motor vehicle constitutes multiple violations of the prohibited activities on Shabbat. Though Judaeo law is based on texts that existed long before the existence of the automobile, various writings prohibit during Shabbat the actions that take place as a result of driving. The Torah thus prohibits driving on the basis that a labor is being performed by the act of operating a motor vehicle. The vehicle's ignition combusts fuel, which by some is considered to violate one of the 39 prohibited activities on Shabbat, as well as creating a spark, which is likewise considered to violate a related rabbinic prohibition. ("Igniting a fire").

Isaiah 58:13-14 speaks out against travel during Shabbat. Modern vehicles also have many other electrical components, such as lights, that are continually turned on and off during the course of a vehicle's operation, often without the driver's awareness. Besides, the laws of Shabbat place limits on the distance one may travel beyond the city/town where one is spending Shabbat, regardless of the method of transportation.

And for those who do attend, taking a collection in church to pay for the Minister's services, also is Sunday Trading. Strictly speaking maybe we should ban church services? Or are the Churches (as I suspect from the vilifying press spouted by their preachers on a variety of subjects) anti-Christ and agents of Satan themselves - as love and compassion for their fellow man seem to have gone out of the stained glass window.

PLP

You're quite right Questionner, but you missed out one vital point - Shabbat is between Friday and Saturday nights so everyone breaks it! All the more reason for Christians to be thankful we are no longer obliged to keep these laws.

As you say, us Christians would do better to focus on loving God and our neighbour rather than trying to enforce laws that Jesus has rendered obsolete.

Questioner

True PLP - but Shabbat/Sabbath, call it what you will is still used by Christians - they just moved the day to a Sunday to suit their own purposes.

Questionner

I'd like to also question whether Churches are breaking general consumer trading laws.

After all, they promise salvation or absolution without substantiation, a guarantee or free-trial period, in return for a few shekels on the collection plate.

Does this constitute misrepresentation?

Guess we will never know until it's too late.

At least hell is warm this time of year.

Ray

So many posts are based on the belief that every shop WILL open

Without the experiment nobody will really know

The alternative is the usual States soporific method of consulting it to death when time permits and returning with a report in a couple of years time ( when they will decide that it's best to leave it to the next States!)

Apparently the bet in play odds are five to one in favour of the alternative

rosie

Ray. The shops we can be pretty certain will open will be Waitrose, B&Q and the Co-op. As was reported in Monday's Press, Waitrose are planning to increase their homeware and electrical sections and also are going to start to stock adult clothing. They will without doubt increase their share of the available market and a large part of that increase will come from their Sunday trading- probably quite a significant part. This is bound to impact on the local shops and St Peter Port who are already struggling. Smaller local shops will be caught between a rock and hard place- if they want to try to maintain some of their market share they will also have to open on Sunday despite the fact that the additional costs will represent a much greater percentage for them. And of course, the gamble of opening on Sunday will only work if enough of the town shops do the same so pulling shoppers to town. If they all decide to stay closed as you suspect, then they are simply rolling over and letting the competition romp home unopposed.

J

Opening on Sunday will have limited impact on the total amount spent in the island.

People won't magically have more money to spend just because the shops are open.

The money made will be spread around across the days, probably severely impacting takings on a Saturday and Monday.

Shops that don't open on a Saturday will see sale fall (depending on the business I would imaging 10 to 30%)

Shops opening on a sunday will have increase staffing costs.

The people who suffer are the business owners who don't want to open sunday (probably smaller businesses) and the people who go to a job interview and say that they are unwilling to work sundays.

The big (mostly) national stored will be the only ones who benefit.

John

It's about winning back online UK trade, don't you get it. The main threat to local business is online shopping.

The only way local businesses can survive is to provide better service, one of these "services" is to open on a Sunday!

glow ex guern

ok have read most but hey did god say we could not help others on a sunday. we could go to mass at 8 am then hey ho help the residents gain help ie monies to live. i have come over on w/ends and there is nothing for myself except flowers for my husband/mums and dads grave . i wish more more shops were open for not only myself but others which would benefit guernsey

Jeff

Mass is a Roman Catholic practice, not Christian.

Let's hope common sense prevails today and they vote to keep things the same. There are far more pressing matters to discuss such as the black hole, social housing, pensions/benefits to mention only a few. Hadley has wasted much time when this could have been brought a year down the line when the more pressing issues had been (hopefully) tackled.

Pillsbury

Mass - Holy Communion in other Churches, is a specifically Christian practice and you should try it...it might even do you good?