Deportation threat for foreign petty criminals

FOREIGNERS who persistently commit petty crimes here face deportation under a tough new policy announced today.

FOREIGNERS who persistently commit petty crimes here face deportation under a tough new policy announced today.

It is long-established that non-British citizens convicted of serious offences in the Bailiwick risk being sent from the islands.

This is now being extended to include those who persistently commit lower-level infringements such as shoplifting, drunk and disorderly and traffic offences.

‘During a recent case in the Magistrate’s Court, the magistrate made it clear to a non-British offender who had committed numerous lower-level offences over a period of time that his history of re-offending worked to the detriment of the community – not only in terms of the ongoing threat the person presented, but also in terms of the resources that are engaged in the detection and prosecution of those crimes,’ said Patrick Rice, Head of Law Enforcement in the Bailiwick, pictured.

‘While the crimes of which he was convicted were not the most serious individually, the history of re-offending was taken into account and a recommendation for deportation was made.’

Comments for: "Deportation threat for foreign petty criminals"

Local Pete

Excellent news, no place for this type of visitors to Guernsey....keep breaking the law and you get shipped out...the way it whould be

No One

That good news, first ship out the undesirable children, now undesirable visitors, now if we can find away to remove home grown criminals you will be all be very happy eh.

Goodness knows if you could come up with an idea to actually sort out your problems without dispatching them to some one else.

Scary_Fairy_tales

What absolute b*ll*cks, he's not saying that at all, just agreeing with the sentiments of the article, as most do on here.

it's not about 'dispatching our problems to someone else', it's about letting people who move here know that if they persistently break our laws they can expect to be sent back to where they came from and cost their own country god knows how much in police time/court fees/prison stays rather than us, 'No One'.

Still, well done for making the first idiotic misplaced xenophobic style remark, there's always one.

Jon

As a mainland resident, this is fantastic to hear that Guernsey is serious about this! I only wish, the same policy, could be adopted here!!

Carlos

Good

The only downside is we will have to wait for them to commit another crime for them to reappear in court.

Carlos

Also rather than a threat can we make it a promise!

PLP

It would be interesting to know the details of this new policy but I don't see a problem with the principle. I like it that Guernsey has become a bit more cosmopolitan, but nobody should expect to come here and abuse our hospitality.

Scotty D

Is this time of Fiscal restraint I think this is an area where we could see prison and court costs subside dramatically.

AN Other

Here's a better idea, if a foreigner commits a crime in Guernsey they should be immediately deported after their first offence.

9 times out of 10 a first offender becomes a repeat offender. Why should we put up with them here to commit crime time and again.

DeeVee

About bloody time!!!!!!

kev

About time too and while you are it checks on all people coming into the island please.

Island Wide Voting

If that is the sign of things to come under the new combined job title then well done Mr Rice

Rather surprised that one of our many many Advocates didn't play the Human Rights " But my client has a pet cat M'Lud" card though

charlie G

At last,a breath of fresh air for common sense ! I bet there are many Islanders like me

who remember the good old days before all the

madness of human rights reared its silly head,when you often read in the Guernsey Press about a person(s) being bound over to leave the island for several years or for ever,having caused and taken part in certain infrigements on this island, then taken down to the harbour,and put on the next ferry leaving our shores,and rightly so to.The simple fact is,that this island is our home,like any home,so welcome to our home,but if you disrespect it,misbehave etc then aurevoir! as simple as that.

Martins

Suggest to take Guernsey Press and look carefully who most of the time is breaking law. Pay attention to 'speeders', drug smugglers and 'fighters while being drunk'.

Not saying this is not a good idea but Your good, old days mostly are ruined by locals.

Ok peeps innit?

I did as you suggested, then also looked at "driving without insurance" and "gang rape" which kind of balanced things out a bit.

Veridique

Martins - I am a regular Guernsey Press reader and you might like to take into consideration the ratio of non locals to locals as a percentage of our population. I think you will find that the amount of crime committed here by non locals and reported in the Guernsey Press,(and I include those from the UK) is far too high and should not be tolerated. Kindly use your common sense before making such sweeping statement.

Maartins

Good point about the ratio, agree.

But you have to agree that locals are changing too and it is not only non-locals making mess here.

Witchfinder General

With AN Other on this. First offence, get them out of here.

Also with Kev on this. Why can't there be more strict screening on the ones coming in?

Dell

I agree, there needs to be better border controls in place, if you have strings of convictions then you are not welcome here and should not be permitted entry. Simple!

concerned

Shame we can't deport local criminals too. Although who we'd burden our undesirables with I don't know - Afghanistan would get my vote.

Dave Haslam

Was thinking the same myself.

A criminal is a criminal regardless of where they are from.

Sapphire

Shame we Can't do what some European countries alledgedly do. The courts appear to give their petty criminals 2 options, either spend time in jail ...... or be shipped off to an island and work your crime off...... You can guess which most take ....and it saves THEIR country money!!

markB

Hang on everybody… It say’s “threat of deportation” not “Will be deported”.

So it will be more than likely be the same old slap on the wrist, and don’t do it again!!

Just Arse king

If they are married/have children with local women/men will the families also be deported?

Blondie

Excellent point. The States will find themselves wrapped up in legal challenges and who pays? The taxpayer.

jerseynige

Simple. Give the families the option of staying or accompanying the criminal who is deported.

I just wish that Jersey would follow suit.

Jeff

Ok, ok, let's do a deal:

The Barclay Brothers are clearly wanting Sark - if Guernsey gives it to them in exchange for Brecqhou. Brecqhou becomes Guernsey's equivalent to Alcatraz (although slightly posher) so we send all the crims there.

In exchange for Jersey using our new penal colony we send all our waste to Jersey for incineration (which they keep the ash) and hey presto, waste strategy solved, Sark issue solved and prison service can be disbanded and money saved.

blondie

But then there will be sob stories in the press about the poor wife who has to uproot 4 children etc etc. And then the advocates will jump onboard.

Actually I would be interested to hear from any advocates on this board as their viewpoint, from a legal perspective, would be interesting.

"Political" people pleasing statements like the one made are fine - but not if the taxpayer will have to foot the bill for legal challenges

TED

All immigrants not just non British should be included in this or it will be discrimination. People from the UK are immigrants to this Island just the same as non British people. We are not part of the UK remember. On the first offence once found guilty deport them immediately, if they are married or in a relationship to a local tough they should thought about this before committing the crime.

Phil

Ted

Go easy on the compassion and tolerance there, it's liberals like you that are to blame for the mess we're in.

TED

Phil - Could you elaborate on how my comments make me a liberal? As I'm no liberal personally I would exterminate the

criminals but that might breech their human rights.

Phil

Ted

I find your comments ambiguous, are you suggesting Guernsey should be a bit harder on criminals?

someblerk

I'm all for this - definitely a step in the right direction, however as Just Arse King stated, what happens when the person to be deported has a local family?

Also once the legal beagles get their teeth into the legalities of doing this we will find that it violates all sorts of obscure EU/UK directives etc.

So, whilst it is a great idea and makes complete sense, once it is finalized and every support group and advocate has had a bash at it, it will become as toothless as most of the other laws. Happy days.

Ed

I don't believe that deportation is a fitting method to use to minimise the problems of crime committed by foreigners; expulsion should only be a strategy to deal with perpetrators of heinous crimes. Anyway, why must foreigners be targeted ? I hope that we are not going to experience an upsurge in right wing fanaticism in Guernsey...

bcb

What do you define as heinous crimes Ed? and targeting foreigners for deportation who commit on a constant basis is fair game imo. Surely it will hopefully make for a better society for all who live and visit wherever they are from?.

It will also relieve us of the tax burden in keeping them locked up.

Are you one of those that puts the rights of the criminal before the rights of the victims of repeat offenders?.

Ed

bcb

I regard heinous crimes as wholesale killing, either genocide or general mass murder- even arson doesn't merit the status of being a heinous crime. Only for unspeakably cruel acts should measures be truly punitive. If the prisons are financially burdensome then heavily tax something else such as car parking in certain public areas- I was contemplating having a tax levied on the parking area around Town Church, North Beach or the Crown Pier...

bcb

So if one of these chaps broke into your house stole some goods and assaulted you then did something similar to others you think it unreasonable to send them packing? Actually you would rather have someone sit down with them and try to understand the reasons they commit such crimes? I would hope if this law comes into effect and as you are so concerned for the state of the criminals mind and against deportation you would take it upon yourself to sit with such an offender and try to understand why they just broke into your house and belted you.

I would take another approach and batter them over the head with a blunt instrument.

Ed you most likely have never been subject to such misfortune and if you ever do i think you may have a different take on this.

Your reply to my post is just about the most stupid post i have ever read. So you would suggest charging taxes on drivers parking their cars to support the prison population? why that group? i wouldn`t be surprised if you next suggested the victims pay a little extra taxes to help towards the keep of these criminals.

Scary_Fairy_tales

....christ, don't encourage him, bcb, you'll get no sense out of 'son of Sparty' whatsoever, he'll go on and on, then Sparty will come on her defending his right to free speech as she's somehow diagnosed he's 'speshal' ('kind of cool', in her twisted mind...)

Ed - have you cleaned your room yet? I'm guessing no. Get to it, my lad, or there's no Come Dancing for you tonight...!!

farewelltofarawayfriends

Wait a second. You start opening that box, the obvious question is where does it stop and what is the criteria for a petty crime. The mindless acceptance of forced deportation, as nearly all of you have supported with your comments is for me, at least troubling. There seems to be more than a hint of xenophobia in the majority of opinions expressed here. The extreme right have always been in favour of repatriation regardless of the reasons given, "send them to Afghanistan!", "why not ship 'em off the first time?", "more screening on "them" coming in", "will their families also be deported". Long live the history of liberalism in the Crown Dependencies! Shall we also deport "foreign" financial institutions, their workers etc. if they continue to leave people out in the cold without a sent in the bank because some CEOs with 0 empathy have been playing the global fruit machine? Will that process also be as rigorous and thorough? Some of you seem to be floating in the skinhead, 1970s backwater of public comment.

Ed

Are you saying that you are in full accordance with my sentiments ?

Ed

"Floating in the skinhead, the 1970s backwater of public comment", I'd say more like floating in the late 1930s and early 1940s wave of anti-Semitism that engulfed Europe. All we need is a well-oiled, manipulative racist propaganda machine to delude and coerce the masses and this will escalate into something far more sinister.

The deputies advocating this strategy ought to be deeply ashamed of themselves; I hope that the opprobrium that they acquire makes them seriously reconsider their choice as being politicians

What happened to egalitarianism ? Even the Conservatives of the 1950s had the ability to somewhat liberalize their political agenda. So why can't Guernsey politicians, who, I believe, are hard conservatives, adapt their thinking so that it is compatible with a changing social environment; so that they are able to expand the concept of the supreme value of the human being so that it encompasses ALL ethnic and national groups ?

St Marcouf

Your views are incredibly naive and obtuse.

Just look across the channel to the continent and Great Britain to see the misery and damage caused by what you gleefully propound.

markB

Give us a brake ED... If foreigners want to come here and be part of the community then they must abide by the rules, if I was in their county they would expect me to abide by theirs and I would, the only difference is that, in some countries if you don’t abide you get shot.

Also, I wish you wouldn’t compare deporting a few disgusting repeat criminals back to where they came from to the murder of 6 million Jews and millions of civilians and solders in the second world war.

Terry Langlois

who said anything about ethnic or national groups?

Don't dress this up as an anti-foreigner policy. This is an anti-criminal policy. The article is quite clear that this would occur in extreme cases of repeat offending, when there is proven criminal tendancy by the individual (i.e no prejudice against any ethnic group, but a consequence of an individual's own actions) and proven detriment to the community by their continued presence here.

The only reason that the policy can only apply to non-British citizens is because our special relationship with the UK means that British citizens have unfettered rights to come here. We cannot prevent British criminals being here, just as Cornwall cannot prevent Scottish criminals being there.

Just saying

"Well oiled, manipulative racist propaganda machine to delude and coerce the masses" - surely that's the Daily Mail and all the other tabloids?

Ed

Well, I wish the article explicitly said that the motives behind this strategy were not ethnic.

St Marcouf, can you explain why egalitarianism and equal treatment for criminals is 'naive and obtuse' ?

'Disgusting'- is that how you regard people, markB ? I know what they have done is morally reprehensible, but saying that they are disgusting is suggestive of one's inability to appreciate the complex motives behind one's behaviour- rehabilitation is best; rehabilitation in the island/nation where the offence was perpetrated.

markB, notice how I didn't compare the extradition of a few criminals to the genocide of 6 million Jews, but that I said there is a possibility that the latter may happen if the initial situation is allowed to escalate.

markB

Yes ED “Disgusting”… Heaven help us if you ever got in to politics… luckily we don’t have a wet liberal party over here.

I tell you what, why don’t you invite these “Disgusting Criminals” sorry!!! “misguided human beings” around your house for cup of tea and a slice of Battenberg then you could have a chat on how naughty they have been and, how not to do it again!!.... Oh!! And you could show them your favourite thesaurus.

St Marcouf

Ed - you were no longer talking about criminals by the time you had got onto the subject of egalitarianism.

Terry Langlois - EEA nationals have the same rights as British citizens to be here.

Spartacus

Ed

I totally agree with you. Government policies should not encourage a "them and us" mentality.

This thread has demonstrated how easy it is to stir up unwarranted hatred.

A criminal is a criminal and should be dealt with appropriately irrespective of where they are from.

Better to work on why our system has failed to rehabilitate repeat offenders than passing the problem on to another jurisdiction.

markB

Spartacus ....So what happens when criminals come here with the intention of Thieving?... Do you send them back or rehabilitate them into our community?…I think most people would agree to sending them back where they came from...whatever race or cred they are.

Spartacus

MarkB

If we let them in they become part of our community just like everybody else. A locally born and bread person can equally intend to steal where would you send them?

We all came from Africa originally!

markB

Spartacus … I’m Sorry but I don’t see it that way, they are abusing the trust of our community and giving nothing back … If a wild dog upsets the rest of the pack it gets chased out!

And in the end it’s us good, honest folk that end up paying for these criminals, because some wet liberal wants to mollycoddle them.

bcb

Sparty i at least expected a more intelligent response to you 1:50pm post. The point is that we don`t want these people criminals here as part of our community and if you took the trouble to ask around you would get the same opinion from their fellow countrymen who do come here and respect not only the law but other people.

As for your remark about where do we send the locals well that really is the kind of comment i would expect from a 5 yr old. sorry.

The funny thing is i just knew you would crop up agreeing with Ed so thats two of you that feel foreign criminals should be able to remain here. What would you say to the next victim that may get beaten and robbed and is still here because of a policy you and Ed seem to endorse?.

This has nothing to do with a them and us approach so stop turning this whole debate into something other than it is. Which is something i have noticed you often do and it seems Ed cant resist in going way of topic too.

Spartacus

bcb

I endorse a policy of rehabilitation which prevents reoffending. Sending people away does not solve anything it just moves the problem for others to deal with or endure.

There is no difference between an offender who has joined our community and one who has been created by our community in my humble opinion, that is exactly what this news item is about so not sure why you think my reference to "them and us" is off topic.

I'm not going to get into an argument about it but I just chipped in with my view because I think Ed's points are valid.

PLP

Ed - I don't think this policy is taking us down the slippery slope towards National Socialism. They deported people from Germany simply for being part of an ethnic minority (e.g. the expulsion of Polish Jews in 1938) whereas this policy targets persistent criminal offenders. Most of our immigrant population are law abiding folk who don't want to be stolen from, threatened in the street or put in danger by reckless driving either. I see it a little like part of a social contract of mutual respect - the people of Guernsey agree to extend the full protection of the law to all residents and visitors; in return those visiting the islands agree to abide by the islands laws.

Sparty - Whilst I have some sympathy with your views I still think we need to draw a line somewhere. Where I do agree is that we have a responsibility to our immigrant population, in that we need to ensure they are treated fairly during their stay here. That means targeting those who exploit foreign workers by housing them in disgraceful conditions and working them like serfs - actions that could well drive some to petty crime. We also have a degree of responsibility to ensure they are acquainted with the islands laws, although much of the responsibility must sit with them - as it sits on anyone who travels outside their home country.

Spartacus

PLP

I am never going to argue against fair treatment, anti exploitation and sensible prevention of crime :-)

Good comments as usual.

Scary_Fairy_tales

That's because he's 12.

Ed! Is that room clean yet...?!!

pb falla

Spot On

Oh Dear

Spartacus, I think a bit more research is needed into our origins. We didn't all come from Africa. There were groups of homosapiens dotted throughout the globe. Most notably the Far and Middle East. Then of course you could take it a step further and we could just chuck all criminals into the sea.

I do agree that a review of our prisons is needed. Do you think rehabilitation is the answer. I don't think it has ever worked. Those that went in once were probably decent enough people that they made a single mistake. Those that end up in prison repeatedly have absolutely no intention of being well behaved. They're the ones who view the police in a very bad light.

On some occasions people do give up a life of crime but I doubt this has anything to do with rehabilitation, I think it's more to do with wanting to adopt a different life style.

As for people who come over here and steal from our shops and beat people up in our town ought to have more respect. As I have said I have no problem with foreigners. The majority are fine and never get into trouble. I am not going to label them all as criminal because of a select few.

If you think it's okay if you went to their home country and starting stealing and beating up their populace then I can see why you have those views.

For me I like to respect any country I'm in and I'd expect others to do the same.

Spartacus

Oh Dear,

You could be right science is always changing and improving our understanding, but the point is we are all humans, all one big happy family!

My earlier post said we should discourage "them and us" mindsets between groups of people and I stand by that and would apply it to many different philosophical issues.

I believe any of us would be capable of crime and repeated offences if we were desparate.

I find the subject of criminal behaviour, justice and rehabilitation very interesting. In particular the criminal habits of the wealthy and poor and what drives each. I do believe rehabilitation is possible but mainly for the latter group.

In relation to your comment about respect, you seem to suggest that people who come to Guernsey ought to have more respect than locals who also steal and beat people up. Are locals permitted to show less respect? I don't think so. Everyone living on this island is an equal part of our community. That is the nub of my viewpoint. It's about respect towards ones fellow man not about geography or domicile status.

Oh Dear

Spartacus, respect works in two ways. The only reason I mentioned the crimes comitted by foreigners is because that's what this thread is about.

Of course local people commit crimes too. There are more local criminals than there are foreign.

I think you slightly misunderstood the point I was making.

I'm not advocating an us and them attitude.

I respect everyone who treats me with respect. That's the basic principal of what I was saying. I have worked with people from Eastern European countries I've heard of the hardships that they face. I completely understand why they'd want to live here and even feel proud that out an entire world full of jobs they choose our beautiful little island.

If only we were all one big happy family. The problem is a select few (foreign and local) have no respect for the place where they are living. They abuse the system. Unfortunately there is only so long you can do this before, it makes better financial sense to attempt to alleviate the problem. If this means getting rid of those who are not being rehabilitated and are continuing to be a nuisance then I think that's what needs to be done. In a perfect world everyone would live in harmony, unfortunately this isn't a perfect world.

I think you are completely right when you say anyone is capable of committing a crime. Desperation and certain life changes can certainly tip otherwise good people over the edge.

I can comprehend why foreign people on the island can end up stealing. 9 times out of 10 they're sending money back to their place of birth. What I can't understand however is why they end up in drunken brawls in town. Then of course you get some people being caught drink driving. These people clearly are not desperate for money, so what exactly is it that drives these crimes?

Spartacus

Oh Dear

Psychological pressure maybe? If they are working miles away from their family, working all hours, living in poor conditions, struggling to survive and being driven to crime by an inadequate minimum wage, that's not a dignified or civilised way of life is it.

I have witnessed behaviour towards incomers and attitudes voiced in private which are truly sickening. Retaliation against such behaviour is not acceptable but would be understandable.

We need measures to ensure people who are welcomed into our community can live a dignified life here or it will impact on us all.

Oh Dear

That is certainly a possibility.

I think it's quite well known that mental health care is not up to scratch on this island. I too have heard some of the things people say in private. You're right it is sickening. I think I would retaliate if somebody was treating me in that way. The problem is I have seen foreign men starting fights in town with my own eyes. Often on other foreign men. Racism may be a contributing factor in some cases but certainly not all.

As I have said some people don't need a cause for crime. Yes there are many contributory factors that cause crimes. But there's not always a reason. I know people who like to fight. They don't fight just to commit a crime.

bcb

Very good Sparty i see you have offered us with your reasoning as to why you think they may commit crimes such as drunken brawls and turned them into the victim. You should have been a lawyer i`m sure you could advise them how to gain sympathy for bashing someone up in the street and again blame the system for their wrong doing? must just add that applies to anyone from anywhere.

Have you considered that some people are just a bit violent and actually enjoy fighting and will kick the hell out of anyone then brag about it just to satisfy their warped sense on enjoyment? what do we do with them? send them back home? talk to them then let them go to beat someone else up? I know what i would prefer and if it was a local then i would have no problem in sending them off somewhere out of harms way too.

Thats just an alternative view to balance things out.

Spartacus

bcb

Maybe you are right but unless you know everything about a person, their background and their psychology, how can you judge their motives?

Oh Dear

As I said before spartacus some people really don't need motives. I walked past a group of lads in town a few years back and one them punched my friend in the face. They had never met, the guy just fancied a fight.

I think a lot of people use pyschology as an excuse for bad behaviour. I've not had the easiest of lives but I would never dream of punching someone for the hell of it. Different people have different brains. I'd need a VERY good excuse to get violent, some people are just violent.

I'm sure in some cases a persons background can affect them in a bad way but not everyone can use this excuse.

The major factor in nearly all violent crime over here is alcohol, you don't need any personal issues to become violent on it. Some people get happy and silly some get angry and violent.

If someone broke into your house how would you feel? Would you try and understand? Or would you become angry? If someone violated your own property and looked through your personal posessions would you try and see a reason or would you see red?

What about if they did the same to a shop that you owned? If people walked in and stole loads of your stock would you be reasonable or upset?

We should be able to trust our fellow people, when they break that trust our perception of strangers changes.

Unless you've been in that position you'll never understand how it feels.

Spartacus

Oh Dear

This is an interesting debate as human behaviour is often unpredictable and hard to understand. I find it fascinating.

I would feel violated if someone broke into my house, Anger and emotion would kick in due to the instinct to protect my loved ones. However after the event I would want to find out why they did it and try to understand the circumstances.

The loss of things is not as relevant as the effect of crime on people, physically and psychologically. I do know a bit about this due to personal experience.

I'm not sure we can ever achieve the kind of utopia you describe where we can trust everyone. The world is going the wrong way at the moment in my opinion.

I gather half the wealth in the USA is in the hands of 400 individuals. How can that be acceptable? That's a huge imbalance of power.

Equality on every small issue would be the starting point to fixing it, bridging the gaps between the wealthy and poor and mitigating the suffering and hardship in the world, particularly for children. In some places in the world this is an enormous challenge but in Guernsey this should be so easy.

Any measures by society to create "them" and "us" situations between groups of people is divisive and counterproductive and this explains my stance on this thread. We can only hope to solve these problems by mitigating the underlying stresses and elevating dignity.

bcb

Exactly Sparty you don`t know their motives that is why i was putting forward another reason some behave in a certain way. You made some suggestions and so did i.

It just seemed to me that your on content on putting forward on set of reasons behind their behaviour which makes them look like the victim when their are other reasons and i was just trying to balance things up a little.

Martino

We might all be descended from just a few thousand breeding pairs of homo sapiens who survived a super volcano explosion 74,000 years ago that almost made us extinct.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2011/02/-near-extinction-of-humans-74000-years-ago-the-toba-super-eruption.html

Oh Dear

Very interesting article Martino.

Ed

I think it is very interesting as well. For the last two and a half years I have been researching the impacts of this event in my own time- I wonder whether it was the sole factor behind the ensuing ice age or if it merely caused it to happen prematurely...

EC

Kev, I believe a police check is already compulsory for foreigners who come to work here. So that's a moot point.

Also I wish they could do something about the local petty criminals, there's far more of those around, like Martins already pointed out.

TED

Ec- The only police checks done are local checks. If they have criminal records in Madeira or Latvia etc they go un disclosed. We could have hardened criminals over here and we wouldn't know.

blogger

There are plenty foreigners working in the building trade who have never had a police check.

Martins

i'd think that hardened criminals couldn't get through UK airports so easy because there aren't direct flights neither from Madeira and Latvia to here.

Not sure how effective is sea border agency.

blondie

And living in local hotels when they dont actually have a housing licence. I can think of one (not far from the airport) that is tourist class yet has workers from the airport living there.

bcb

No it`s not, there are employers who don`t ask for a police check.

Ed

bcb

Though it may appear as if me and Spartacus are digressing, we are merely attempting to create a sense of balance on this forum by ensuring that not all posts are from parish-pumps only examine these matters superficially. Narrow-minded remarks are infuriating- I know that certain aspects of Guernsey suit remaining parochial, but the views of islanders ought to be less bigoted and more compatible with an ever-changing social environment.

CSR

Ed, 'me and Spartacus ' surely 'Spartacus and I'

tut, tut... very surprised at you;-)

DWB1873

Surely that should be "Spartacus and I"?

St Marcouf

You are the one who is narrow-minded because you are failing to see and appreciate the diabolical consequences of your outdated mantra in operation.

I do not understand why people of your ilk wish and expect every land mass on this planet to hold an amalgam of people from every conceivable race, nation and culture speaking every conceivable language and following every conceivable creed.

Island Wide Voting

Don't blame Ed for 'me and Spartacus'

He posted at 4.41pm ...just home from school where he had been asked to give the teacher a sentence beginning with 'I'

Expecting something to do with 'ignorant parish pumps' she was surprised when Ed started with " I is .."

"Stop right there Ed" said Mrs Watson,"You must ALWAYS say I AM .."

OK said Ed " I AM the ninth letter of the alphabet"

jim

16 plus comments and everyone in general support .. Thats should be front page news in itself.

Tough choices or not, couldn't agree more with this one.

barn owl

Three strikes and they're automatically out?

Lou

EC I'm not so sure the checks are done I 'd like evidence of this

ChrisM

Only it might encourage some people to repeat offend just to get a free flight back home.

Will they get escorted onto a plane and if they miss their flight will the taxpayer loose the (presumably non-refundable ticket) money?

Will we send them just to the UK (thats a bit unfair for the UK!) or will we send them onwards to somewhere else for free?

(Yes officer I live in Disneyland Florida!)

Still its probably cheaper than sending them to our prison I guess - seems an easy exit strategy for some who cant afford to pay the plane fare home. Hope they dont start a fight with me or break my windows just to get a free plane ticket...

No One

Don't worry, just dump them in the UK like we do with everyone else we don't want. And then remember to blame the UK for everything so they don't notice.

But keep it quiet.

pb falla

Get real this will not happen,anyone who believes this will be implemented need to take a serious look at themselves.

A very silly idea.

markB

I tend to agree with you pb falla

Jersey Bean

I seem to recall that it has been suggested in the past that Guernsey ships all its rubbish/waste to Jersey for Jersey to deal with, well if this ever came about Guernsey would simply have to throw a few of its undesirables in with all the rubbish and there you have it job done, "two birds with one stone" as they say, because at the moment Jersey seems to accept any old rubbish without exception.

As usual Guernsey is ahead of Jersey when it comes to common sense policies, I think it's about time that Jersey at least tried to catch up!

islander

I believe in all drug traffickers being fined and sent back to their countries to serve their sentence without occurring the cost to this island.

Paul

It used to happen when people were bound over to leave the island for a set period of time, so why not extend it not just for foreign nationals but also uk offenders.........human rights in the uk have hampered the law there, but as we are constantly reminded we are not part of the EU as such, so why should we have to take foreign criminals......we make our own laws so lets start getting this right !

Just Sayin'

Will believe it when I see the first case.

Offenders will claim ‘human rights’ family ties to island, no place to go etc etc. Lawyers will be rubbing their hands together drawing out nice long cases and subsequent big pay cheques. There’ll be adjournments and appeals galore.

Sorry to be the voice of gloom but as much as I would like to celebrate with the rest of you I just can’t see this being enforced.

Dave Jones

There is much talk about the human rights of individuals and the one most often quoted as a reason for not being deported is Article 8 of the ECHR.

In fact we have as you will see below, much more power under section 2 of article 8 to remove people but the problem is that is it is nor often quoted in cases when it should be.

Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

So you see we can and should use section two much more often and it should apply to all those who consistantly break Guernsey laws regardless of where they are from.

Jailhouse lawyer

Dave

I think section 1 would triumph over section 2 in the case of someone with a wife and/or children over here who is frequently convicted of relatively minor crimes.

Personally I would prefer to see much more severe sentencing for repeat offenders, with the option to significantly reduce it should they agree to leave the island and stay away. It would have to be a watertight system though, otherwise some of our legal aid advocates will be creaming a fortune out of trying to worm their way around it.

Dave Jones

Of course and that is the point of the courts because as soon as other family members become involved (partners children ect) then that changes things and courts are duty bound to take those factors into account.

Where there are no connections of any significant nature, then it should be a straight forward decision for the courts.

MP

Thanks for posting that Dave.

If we offended in another country we would be subject to the laws of that country, as seen with the recent case of the drug courier who has been sentenced to death, and no before anyone suggests otherwise I am not advocating the death penalty in Guernsey.

But the fact is thats the law in that country and if you break it you have to accept the consequences for yourself and your family be that imprisonment, deportation or capital punishment.

St Marcouf

If the deportation is challenged, I would imagine that our courts are unlikely to have the backbone to apply their own robust Guernsey interpretation of section 2 and instead will adopt the sham interpretation applied by the UK courts.

Pete

Will never happen,,,,FACT

You heard it here first

markb

pb falla.... said it first fact

Taz

I thought that they had to agree to the deportation and sign something, so if they dont sign you cannot deport them

VERIDIQUE

' Deportation threat for foreign petty criminals' At last I thought something that will benefit the island, unfortunately my euphoria was short lived as I started to read the article and was met by such lame rhetoric as "risk being sent, warned, and consider making a recommendation" The non local deported had offended 12 Times, just how much consideration is needed before coming to this mind blowing conclusion. We are a small island and crime does impact on our lives, we should have zero tolerance for those who are essentially "guest" on our island. We should send out a clear signal from the start that criminal behaviour no matter how insignificant it may seem will not be tolerated. It would not take long for that message to sink in if we had the common sense to put this policy into action immediately without further prevarication. Those who witter on about human rights and being unfair we are talking about those who BREAK THE LAW. Maybe this analogy will help you to understand, if you invite guests to your house and they proceed to steal from you, assault or abuse you whether drunk or not, you would feel it your right to eject them from your property. For all you politicians out there could some of you just for once have the courage and backbone to do something constructive for this island you have been elected to govern. At the moment the only decisions you seem happy to make is to spend spend spend and then turn into accountants looking for cost cutting options to pay for that excessive spending. For a start deport these undesirables and cut the costs of housing these criminals in our prisons. History will judge you all it depends whether you want to be judged as men or mice.

Just Sayin'

VERIDIQUE - would the analogy work if I told you that those guests paid for part of your house, had indeed been living there for a number of years and were related to other people who owned and lived in the house?

Analogies don't work.

markB

I can't quite see where you going with that one Just Sayin!

veridique

Just Sayin - CONFUSED!!!!!! Just how did non local foreign offenders pay for my house?

TED

VERIDIQUE- what a bizarre post from Just Sayin. Must be a shock to find out that you're not the sole owner of your house! Not only that but they have been living with you for a number of years, are you sure they are not hiding in the cellar?

Just Sayin'

I was referencing your analogy:

..."Maybe this analogy will help you to understand, if you invite guests to your house and they proceed to steal from you, assault or abuse you whether drunk or not, you would feel it your right to eject them from your property."...

In this analogy your 'house' was Guernsey.

What I was suggesting was, what happens when that person is say married to someone here, has a child or perhaps other relatives. Was maybe not born here but brought here at a young age and educated. Pays into the system etc etc. Why would 'you' get to stay if you committed a crime (albeit probably go to prison) but they would have to leave.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate, I don't particularily have a view one way or another, just picking potential faults in this plan. I don't think it'll work - like I said with my original post. Will beleive it when I see the first case.

Froggy

wow this has certainly got people bothering to comment, perhaps because we are all fed up to the back teeth of these persistant offenders, as someone else has stated, we dont want these rapists, drum dealers and vice barons on this small Island, we have enough problems dealing with our own locals. Time the authorites did something about it and forget the mamby pamby human rights, bring back the birch too, plus the blackboard rubber accross the back of the head and a few whips of the cane, we are far too politically correct. Clean up this Island its not what it used to be and we need to do something about it NOW

Ed

Froggy

Your idea of wanting to "clean up this island startles" me- it sounds very similar to ethnic cleansing. I know behaviour from foreigners, and indeed locals, is not favoured, but who is the true judge of what is desirable or not ? An ultimate deity ? It's probably impossible to know. On the other hand, evolution has given way to the creation of humans, most probably, yet the same evolution has not given way to a moral code or a document stating how to deal with PERCEIVED immoralities. Therefore, if there is a compromise between following the concept of Creationism or the evolutionary theory, one's logical wisdom ought to inform them that it would, from the perspective of a probability theorist, be better to follow the latter course, which thus means that their is no agency that determines whether something is moral or depraved. What one fails to recognise that the human race has interpreted the universe, a perpetual grey mass, as black or white to accomplish their own ends.

bcb

Ok Mr philosopher in that case ehtnic cleansing cannot be immoral and neither can rape or murder or deportation of "criminals" so whats your problem?.

Don`t you mean the universe has interpreted itself?.

Why does probability suggest we follow the latter course? do you know something the rest of us don`t? I have yet to see a shred of evidence to suggest either, the rest is just faith whichever side your on.

Oh Dear

Ed, it's a punishment for those who constantly reoffend. We're not all becoming Hitler, get off your moral high horse and think. If you went to say, Poland, would you expect them to put up with your behaviour if you were consistently stealing goods or fight whilst drunk?

If someone came into your house and started fighting or stealing goods, you'd want them gone. It's not ethnic cleansing, it's just getting rid of a nuisance.

The reason they mention foreign criminials is because we cannot deport people who already live here. - I can't believe I had to write that sentence, hopefully you'll understand now though.

Ed

Sorry, but the only person I am hoping to agree with here is Spartacus- I think he shows the greatest appreciation for my sentiments. MarkB, what's with the word 'wet'- I do hope that someone else out there has a more sophisticated view if the Liberal party.

Anyway, bcb, if you read my posts properly then you would have realised that the purpose of car parking fees was not to allow prisoners to have their luxuries (something that I don't think should be permitted), but to compensate for losses incurred though removing taxes from prisons if this may happen. The latter course, bcb, is evolution- so don't tell me that this is not the more rationale approach to consider.

Yes, I do acknowledge that murder, rape etc is morally reprehensible, but that does not afford one the excuse to use ill conceived words to describe the perpetrators of those acts.

Why don't you ignorant parish-pumps educate yourselves, though you, Spartacus, don't need to do so as you appear to have learnt that broad-mindedness is integral to the continuity of a democratic society.

bcb

Ed

You are so funny.

We should not use ill conceived words to describe people such as murderers but you are happy to describe people as "ignorant parish-pumps" because they have a different opinion, priceless.

Your knack of trying to turn every post written by others into something other than what is actually being said is pathetic as in this case about the deporting of serial offenders.

At least if people like you and sparty were to have your own way we would at least know who to thank for them remaining here after robbing and beating their next victim.

Island Wide Voting

Ed

It's just a pity that she can't spell 'bred'

Oh Dear

So you consider yourself to be broad minded? If you were broad minded you'd take everyone's views into account, not just your beloved Spartacus' views.

Every time you post you make more and more of a fool of yourself. Your age is obvious, your lack of respect for the opinions of others is atrocious. You're entitled to your opinion Ed but don't knock others for having their own mind.

As for the subject at hand, I think it's a fairly obvious and simple answer to what is a big and expensive problem for this island. I have no problem with people coming into the island from elsewhere, in fact I welcome them with open arms. But if they come over here and cause trouble and end up in prison more often than not, what contribution are they making to society? The criminal behaviour of the minority of foreign workers costs us a lot of money. Why should we have to pay for their crimes?

A.J.

Long overdue in my opinion. Perhaps they should go and offend in the Far East and see what will happen to them.

At least here we are only suggesting to return them to their place of origin.Hardly O.T.T as a punishment.

Nige

I'm with Froggy, let's get rid of these "drum dealers" far too noisy.

Island Wide Voting

The Iranian's have their own system

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2270619/Sharia-saw-Iran-releases-pictures-brutal-amputation-machine-chopping-mans-fingers-bid-clamp-election-dissent.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

bobby

Why is the establishment so P.C.?

Kick the offenders out, far cheaper than paying for their luxury accommodation.

Ed

Bobby

They don't need "luxury accommodation"- just a small-medium sized prison cell with nothing more than a mattress and a basin.

The prison system need not be a profit-making organisation.

bcb

Wow is this the same Ed who is so concerned about the manner in which many of us see it fitting to deport serial offenders but he wants to see them locked up in a medium size cell with nothing more than a mattress and a basin? not that i disagree with him.

blondie

So own facilities? That's better than being in an open market house share!!!!

markB

ED .....So us posters are "ignorant parish-pumps" that need educating are we now

bcb

It`s quite obvious from reading many of Ed`s posts he thinks he is a cut above the rest and somehow thinks we need to be educated to his ways of thinking. He has used many a fine word in the past for us uneducated parish-pumps.

farewelltofarawayfriends

Please, please do yourselves all a favour. Start a xenophobic tinted facebook club. Post photos of yourselves next to banners proclaiming that the only and final solution to these "Johnny Foreigners" (who decide to commit crimes, any crimes, albeit no crimes other than being "foreign") is to "ship 'em out. Don't care but anywhere away from Guernsey.

Then when they've gone forever, and your sitting snug in your local-market houses or open-market mansions, chomping on some imported Spanish sausage, or some Greek olives, drinking imported Portuguese red wine, swearing about the imposing threat of people arriving from "abroad", think about how tax havens have benefitted and survive from the non-legitimate, undeclared deposits of "foreign" investments and that hospitals and schools all over the world have been robbed blindly by ciphering what should've been redistributed wealth, into lucrative safety deposit boxes, guarded by the dubious laws of such havens, and guarded by the hypocritical, smug, nonchalant attitudes of people such as your kind selves. You accept knowingly that "foreign criminals" keep millions here and ask yourselves nothing ethically, yet when the blue collar foreign thief is caught on your doorstep, you'd all quite happily see him thrown into the sea.

Many of you are actually defending your stance on being against Human Rights. I'll repeat that: The majority of you here are against Human Rights. And the saddest thing for me personally is that it comes as no surprise. Bravo to the GP juxtaposing the words foreign, criminal and deportation in the headline. That was a sure to get the rallying masses waving the their flags into their crusade. How embarrassing and infuriating that some of you were born on the same rock as I.

Ed

What can I say ? Fantastic !

May I add you to the list of those considered broad-minded ?

Whilst those bigots "wave their flags into their crusade", we ought to collaborate with Spartacus to wage our own online campaign against their small-mindedness...

Perhaps these xenophobes should be confronted with the risk of deportation for their failure to embrace egalitarianism...

Scary_Fairy_tales

Human Rights blah blah blah xenophobia blah blah blah everyone should be entitled to do what they like and live everywhere blah blah blah...and every other politically correct phrase that I can think of.

Did you actually READ the article or just see the main headline and decide to kick off with this diatribe...?

In 'TROTW' (the rest of the world) deportation for a 'non local' having committed just ONE crime (not multifarious ones, as is the intention here) is quite common and widely accepted, FWTFF, so that makes most of the world 'xenophobic', according to you.

This is not about the UK deporting their own homegrown crims to the other side of the world to live out their days without the familiarity of home and family they grew up with around them, it's about sending people who move here and constantly break our laws back to their own country of origin where they can continue to break the law if they wish, the only differences being it will cost their own country in terms of police/court/jail time, not ours, and that their laws may not be as forgiving as ours, as I, someone who has gotten off our 'rock' can tell you.....

a quick glance at the papers that report on TROTW will tell you likewise, thieves in certain countries don't get fined and probation, but lose a hand, drug smugglers don't get a short sentence and rehab, but the death penalty, and rapists (3 in particular come to mind...) get little sympathy either.

Life is great, there's lots of good stuff, but it's not like a popular soft drink ad where we all stand round holding hands and teaching the world to sing, it's slightly less idealistic than that. The bottom line is I, and most other people in the world who care about the country/island they are from and live in (and pay taxes in), who abide by the law and pay their dues, do not want to be subsidising the costly consequences of those who come to their country to benefit from it's lifestyle whilst constantly breaking the law/burgling their homes/risking others lives on the road/attacking people.

Not really a hard sentiment to understand.

Island Wide Voting

Scary_Fairy_tales for CM

bcb

Great post. Wish i could have got my point across as well as you have just put it but in essence i was trying to make those same points

Ed

bcb

The difference between me calling you narrow-minded bigot and you calling foreign petty criminals undesirables is that you don't consider the motives behind an offender's behaviour and the circumstances that moulded them into their present state , but merely consider them as depraved because their behaviour is unfavourable to others' welfare- are they complex motives beyond your capacity to ratiocinate ?

On the other hand, my claim that you are acting like a small-minded parish-pump is justified as there is substantial evidence to corroborate it, namely your poor choice of words and lack of truly cogent ideas.

bcb

Justified in your young head Ed but when you grow up and grow a pair then maybe you can go out and tackle these criminals yourself as you seem to know everything thats wrong with them, but i wish you luck because there`s more chance you`ll end up with a split lip and go running to mummy. No you`ll just stay safe in your rom and let others pick up the pieces wont you?.

Ed

I wouldn't physically control them for I am sure that there others who are capable of doing- the most obvious example being police officers. But what you MUST realise is that I am not shifting the burden for 'tackling' them psychologically and, to a degree spiritually, is an onus of tantamount, perhaps much larger, size.

Ed

Anyway, I think that the time has arrived for some deputies to peruse the posts of us condemners of the proposed extradition policy for petty criminals as they will realize that this move is nothing more than outmoded and thus incompatible with modernity.

Oh Dear

Or as it's a democracy they'll go with the side that has the more supporters.

Can I just say (again) I'm not a xenophobe because I think the good thing to do would be to get rid of serial offenders.

It's easy to jump to that conclusion but I really am not (nor are most of the others one this page) against people coming over here to work. I think it's an honour and a privilege that people want to be here. I love talking with foreign people on this island. You can really appreciate what you've got when you've spoken about the hardships of living in some of the more deprived Eastern European countries.

On the political spectrum I consider myself to be more on the left than the right. In this instance however I agree that problematic foreigners (who are costing us a lot of money) shouldn't be here. If I was living in your house and kept stealing off you, would you still want me there? Would you try and understand that maybe I've had a hard life or would you instantly phone the police to get rid of me? It's all well and good claiming that these people need help. Prison obviously doesn't rehabilitate those that are serial offenders. If it does then, great. If not and they continue to reoffend, then they should go.

PLP

As a general comment reading through these posts I just love the way that, when subjects like this come up, some (I stress some) folk just can't see beyond extremes of opinion.

Make a comment and in their eyes you're either a Nazi or a loony liberal - no room for the middle ground here as that requires too much thought - which is a pity as in this case the middle ground is probably the best place to be.

Ed

PLP

If you are referring to my posts, which is very likely so, you are somewhat incorrect inasmuch that you have overlooked the idea that those advocating this policy are not Nazis (perhaps xenophobes instead), but that this state of affairs, if unchecked, has the potential to escalate- perhaps not into wholescale killing , but into circumstances charactised by oppressed immigrant communities, increasingly hostile locals and thus a polarised situation between ethnic groups.

bcb

Dear oh dear what deluded planet are you from? this has nothing to do with being xenophobic its to do with keeping serial offenders out of Guernsey which helps make for a safer place for the those who reside here no matter where they are from. Go and ask those who come and either work or settle here from other countries and you will find they are of the same opinion so are you going to call them xenophobic to?.

You yes you Ed and a couple of others are actually the ones who stir up the trouble by spurting out garbage about others who dont see things your way and all they are saying is serial offenders are not welcome here and neither are the local ones but i`m afraid were stuck with them.

There should be or maybe there is a phobia for people such as yourself where anyone who has an opposing opinion will be put under the microscope for what is really a very understandable (in this case)common sense approach to help keeping a reduced crime rate in Guernsey.

Ed

bcb

Well try telling that to Farewelltoallfarwayfriends, or even Spartacus.

Anyway, why can't we expulge locals ? I would be somewhat more supportive of this strategy if it was more egalitarian in nature.

Ed

But aren't prisons the way of reducing loca crime rates ? If the prison service became a non-profit-making organisation then it wouldn't appear financially burdensome to 'keep' the inmates.

I don't stir up the trouble, it's merely people who view something as alien to them or contrary to their interests who think that way.

The idea of deportation for heinous crimes sounds more rational, but not for petty crimes- why is there large focus on peccadillos (lesser offences) ? It's not as if grievous harm has been inflicted or a person's life has been profoundly impacted upon- it's just short-term troubles of which the effects can be effortlessly remedied. It's not merely the latter idea that provokes me, it's the ill conceived words used to describe these people

PLP

Ed - I'm no lawyer but I believe it would be illegal to expel qualified citizens, which I think would include people who weren't born here but have been naturalised.

There is also the ethical question - although we have a collective responsibility towards everyone who lives here, every state has a particular responsibility for its own citizens. That is pretty much a universally accepted concept, unless you want to nullify all national borders and the concept of nation states....but history suggests all attempts at this are doomed to failure.

Island Wide Voting

Ed

Can you expand on your theory that the Guernsey Prison IS a profit making organisation?

bcb

Ed read back to one of your earlier posts and what you describe as heinous crimes and then see just how much of a hypocrite you are.

You even suggested arson was not heinous although you did include mass murder which suggests to me a single murder also doesn`t fit your criteria as heinous and yes those are the kind of people that can do great harm but you would rather they weren`t deported.

Your trouble is is that you talk to much and i`m sure you forget some of what you have posted then you go on to contradict yourself.

MP

Ed

wait until it is your tax money that is going towards paying for the "rehabilitation" of these repeat offenders and see whether you feel the same.

PLP

Ed - as stated it was a general comment and whilst some parts of your posts went OTT in my book so did others from those that support the policy. Issues like this always bring polarised opinions, which is a shame as I honestly think the middle ground actually proves the best solution.

You are right that xenophobia sadly does exist on Guernsey, but that doesn't make every supporter of this policy "ignorant parish pumps", behind the times or racists.

In the same way though an extreme form of liberalism exists which is like a red rag to a bull to people who want to take advantage of well meaning people / societies, but that doesn't make everyone who is concerned "loony lefties."

There is a fine line between legitimate protection of a small community like Guernsey and xenophobia. Fear of crossing this line shouldn't prevent us from making decisions though - and so although we should take care to use a policy like this carefully we shouldn't be afraid to take a firm line with people who would act to the detriment of everyone, whether local or immigrant. In my opinion that is the right course of action.

bcb

Good post Paul

I think when you here people use phrases like "send them back to where they came from" can be taken in taken out of context as proved on here. It doesn`t automatically mean people are using phrases such as this because they are foreign it is more likely because of the crimes they commit. We of ten here similar phrases towards locals with "lock em up and throw the key away" it has very little to do with where they are from.

People like Ed will jump to conclusions and accuse people of certain views towards ethnic groups without having one iota of their thoughts other than what they think of serial offenders who come to our Island.

As for xenophobia yes you are right it sadly does exist but it does everywhere and often not just by the local populations but by those who settle in other countries towards the locals. Its just a shame people like Ed will use any remark he can find to shout xenophobia (in fact he goes on to say much more than that) at anyone who dare suggest serial criminals are not wanted here (or anywhere else for that matter) without even acknowledging there genuine reasons for having such sentiments.

Dell

It is not surprising that there is a general feeling that people who commit crimes repeatedly whilst essentially 'guests' in our Bailiwick should be exported whence they came! The reality, as ever, will be somewhat different as it does not appear to be so easy to deport criminals.

But hang on a minute, look at the policy that Australia has, effectively they immediately deport any offenders, so it can be done but needs the moral fibre and backbone that our elected States appear to not be comfortable with!

Ed

Dell

One of the reasons why the States don't feel "comfortable" with implementing this strategy is because it appears morally problematic; even though the political machine may feel that it works to the avail of the majority of the population, it still seems somewhat xenophobic, the approval of other governments notwithstanding, thereby meaning that the local politicians' superegos prevent them from going one step beyond.

Is it more favourable to be consumed by feelings of frustration and disgruntlement by having to keep foreign offenders fed with our food resources and washed with our water and invest time into their rehabilitation, or to have the politicians, and indeed the work-a-day individuals', moral conscience haunt them knowing that they have offloaded the burden onto someone else and targeted certain ethnic groups with the policy ?

Dell

In response to your point Ed, the latter as opposed to the former.

Ed

Dell, justify your answer.

Island Wide Voting

Ed

I believe the decision on who should be deported or not lies not with the politicians but with his Excellency The Lieutenant Governor Air Marshall Peter Walker CB,CBE

A.J.

Australia have changed policy over the last two milleniums when, you consider that,the UK used to send thousands of criminals to the other side of the world for very little ongoing cost,but now are very sensitive regarding immigration even when you take into consideration the vast area of land,compared to this little Isle.Perhaps we might follow their example.

pb falla

That Ed seems a reet geezer reminds me of Delboy

bcb

I doubt he speaks French as well as delboy does.

Scary_Fairy_tales

....he's not a geezer and even Sparty know's he's not the messiah, just a very naughty boy ....

now for the last time Ed, take your meds and go and clean your room!

Spartacus

Scary Fairy

He's not naughty he is just trying to express himself and has some obstacles in doing so, nevertheless he is very principled and thoughtful which is unusual in one so young. We "elders" should encourage his participation with patience and tolerance.

There is very little for teenagers to do in Guernsey and we should encourage youngsters to be interested in the island's current affairs and to engage politically. You should save your complaints for the ones his age who really are the naughty ones and up to no good.

Ed

Sorry, no can do- I am unyielding when it comes to debate about matters of philosophical significance.

Why don't you castigate Spartacus and Farewelltofarawayfriends for they are virtually in full accordance with my sentiments (not that such concepts warrant panning, though) ? It's a sad reflection on our society if someone attracts more criticism because of their predilection for being verbose or profound philosophically-based concepts.

markB

the three of you should set up as pop group and call yourselvs

wet wet wet

Spartacus

MarkB

It's a bit wet that our immigration controls are non existent so we let in anyone and allow them to integrate in our community. The problems within our society and housing policies cause people to turn to crime, our minimum wage is not adequate to feed a dog let alone a family and our justice system is ineffectual so people repeatedly reoffend. And because our systems are so incompetent at dealing with these matters it is considered OK to then unceremoniously expel people whom the system has failed having already spent thousands on the ineffectual processes outlined above.

bcb

Are you suggesting that these people we expel only turned to crime since they came to this Island? If that is what you are saying then it would surely mean that it is worse here than where they came from? which begs the question why would they want to stay here?.

Stop always trying to blame someone or something else from ones behaviour.

Take for example some of the larger haul of drugs and the people that have been caught. I dont know about you but i know that some of these are very well of people as are many that commit crime. Do you think these people you speak of once having filled their pockets with money will just suddenly become reformed characters?.

Yes there is desperation that will cause some to commit crimes.

Its not black and white but i`m sure you wont agree.

Spartacus

bcb

If they were successful criminals before they came here they would probably wish to stay in their place of success. If they were unsuccessful criminals some basic immigration checks would confirm this but in failing to do ANY due diligence we accept all the risks and responsibility of allowing these people to integrate here.

The wealthy criminals you speak of are a case in point, we welcome them here with open arms, assume they are good because they are wealthy and concentrate on the petty criminals. Tax evaders and sex offenders would be other obvious examples.

There are aspects of our community which encourages petty crime however that does not mean we turn good people who come here into bad it just means that certain conditions are more likely to make them desperate. Every circumstance is different but repeat petty offenders are I think more likely to be the ones who are just on the wrong track and need a break in life.

I'm not going to stop my blaming, sorry old bean, I'm just doing what everyone does on this forum chipping in with what I think is the underlying problem.

I agree its not black and white but most posters on this thread say it is black and white.

bcb

I agree with checks on people before they arrive here but many of my posts were in reply to that young confused Ed who seems to have all the answers but when you read through his posts which are very cleverly written (i`ll give him that) it is obvious there is no consistency in what he says apart from spouting out words like xenophobic to anybody who deosn`t share his opinion thats if you can even work out what it is?.

For instance. He doesn`t think deportation is right for crimes other than heinous ones which by his definition is mass murder or genocide not even arson is classed as heinous.

One can only assume that rape gbh or aba, murder amongst other crimes doesn`t class as heinous so he is against their deportation. He then states in another post " It’s not as if grievous harm has been inflicted or a person’s life has been profoundly impacted upon". But should that be the case he thinks they should should not be deported.

Scary_Fairy_tales

Obviously any attempt to get over yourself has failed as miserably as your ability to understand a little humour in the form of a reference to the infamous Monty Python film, Spartacus.

I've never been able to take anyone who takes themselves so seriously, seriously, and never will.

Christ, I bet you and your son Ed are great fun at social events.

Spartacus

Scary Fairy

Ah the penny drops! Sorry I admit that one did go straight over my head, now makes sense. Before Ed's time I suspect. He's not my boy but I detect some similar personality traits. We are all unique though eh? I try not to take myself too seriously but can't win as I get called a 5 year old when I try to lighten up! Never mind. Can't all be perfect, just you :-)

Spartacus

bcb

Ed is precocious but he's a work in progress not the finished article! I wish more teenagers were as thoughtful as him, sadly I doubt there are many his age willing to discuss and debate the topics which interest him.

Xenophobia is rife in Guernsey, it's a natural fear which requires a great deal of rationalisation to overcome. It's understandable but not excusable. I'm not going to accuse anyone but I think it is worthwhile scratching the surface to consider the ramifications of this new deportation policy.

a voter

Wouldn't it be easier to vote us out of this ruling that EU citizens have a right to work here under an EU Community agreement that we aren`t a part of and MAKE all the scroungers on benefits do the jobs available or they get no benefits at all.

It would serve four main problems,

(1)Less housing permits to issue.

(2)More housing for locals who need it.

and

(3)Less law breaking from outsiders easing policing and Court times.

(4)A huge drop in unemployment and benefit payments saving millions for the FTP.

Easy eh?

Ectopudding

On a similar note, is it too much to ask the states that before granting licenses to foreigners that they can actually speak English first! Particularly when they are going to be waiting in restaurants!

A.J.

Or working in a Hospital!

kevi n

a voter

for the last time i'm going to spell this out for people like you because simple maths doesn't seem to sink in with folks like you.

there are between 3,000 and 4,000 guest workers in Guernsey depending on who you talk to. I'm talking about people living in open market accomodation and nine month licence holders.None of these people take housing from locals because they can't live in local market. We have 400 people out of work 250 of whom cannot be employed, don't want to be employed in fact are unemployable. EVERY SOCIETY HAS THEM. That leaves 150 or so who are between jobs and these folks will eventually find work. WHO IS GOING TO DO THE OTHER 2,850 JOBS? So this massive drop in benefits and the unemployed that you alude to is simply not going to happen. For the record I think the general attitude of some of the so called locals toward guest workers in Guernsey stinks and is shameful. I would hope that the thousands of Guernsey born folks living and working throughout the world get better treatment where they are than that given by narrow minded locals here.

JUST SO THERE IS NO MISUNDERSTANDING HERE I HAVE NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER WITH CRIMINALS BEING DEPORTED FROM GUERNSEY.

Neil Forman

Kevin

Good post, bit of a rant but I agree with your sentiments.

I agree that the guest workers do a good job, work hard and get paid next to nothing in jobs locals will not entertain.

This article is about one who just kept on breaking our laws and did not show any sign of rehabilitation, so he was rightly removed.

No reason to tar them all with the same brush, most work very hard and provide great service.

JohnT

I may has missed it somewhere in the comments, but as a retired Police officer the problem as I see it is that we should no allow anyone with a criminal record to gain employment on the island.

This would apply to all nationalities, and therefore would close the door to many who have a record, especially for violence who are on the island at this very moment.

Rehabilitated

So you think that anyone with a criminal record (however minor and however long ago) should be banned from working in Guernsey?

A typically black and white point of view from an ex woodentop by the look of it.......

markB

That’s a bit harsh John T

Scary_Fairy_tales

Harsh it may be, and indeed, but agree or no, you will find that many countries simply will not let a person in with any form of criminal record.

DBo

Has anyone stopped to think about what hard-working law-abiding foreigners think about their fellow countrymen (and women) who break the laws repeatedly? I know some people who "hate" Latvians and Poles etc because they're "always" breaking the law in some way or another, but of course it's not ALL of them. It must be awful to have a bad reputation on this island simply because someone else has been misbehaving. I'm sure most foreigners would be in favour of this new policy on that basis.

Tired of Benefit Thieves

It can be no different from knowing local "baddies". Guernsey is not whiter than white when it comes to home grown crims. I feel personally ashamed when you see how many young women are thieving from the system. Yes, thieving - after all, these women who sleep around, get pregnant again and again, show up for their handouts, they have never paid anything into the system have they? and never will probably either. I have much respect for the immigrants who do the jobs these waste-of-spaces SHOULD be doing for their hand outs. but of course Guernsey is far too soft to insist that benefit holders actually "earn" what they claim.

OK, now I am going to sit back and wait for all the do gooders to suggest that perhaps I am being a teeny tiny bit mean on all those lovely girls and their sprogs....

Spartacus

Tired of Benefit Thieves???

Tired of sexism!!!

A woman cannot get pregnant by herself. Men sleeping around getting women pregnant and then shoving off is OK is it?

Men and women who have a child need childcare to be able to both work. I suspect there is inadequate provision of affordable and suitable childcare in Guernsey. The jobs you are referring to would not be adequate to cover the bills unfortunately.

Besides with an aging population and falling birth rates some countries are PAYING people to have children. It's maybe not such a waste.

Paaarp!!

Spartacus

You assume that some of these women actually know who the father is. As the saying goes, "when you eat a tin of baked beans you don't know which one it is that makes you break wind"!!

PLP

I think what Sparty is getting at is that it takes 2 to tango and to lay all the blame on the mother is patently wrong. Men who think they can dip their wick and saunter off should be made to accept responsibility for their offspring - and if there is any doubt which baked bean is responsible DNA testing can quickly ascertain who the father is.

Dani

I agree with Spartacus in that the women are very harshly judged for being on their own with children.

Just by saying that she has prompted a response that showcases that the worst is often assumed of a woman and no consideration is given to the men that have played a role. I would suggest both genders are responsible for having unprotected sex and if a male engages in this behaviour then it is more likely he is promiscous himself.

The last single mother I was heard about was 25. She had two children and then her husband had died.

The one I heard about before that fell in love and had a child. The father became addicted to drugs. His lifestyle has not improved - he has been in and out of prison and now the father has been removed from the childs life. She works the hours she can even though its only slighly better than being on benefits.

When you walk past these single mothers I would ask people to not automatcally assume the worst. I would also ask people to think what it must be like with rent and childcare costs on this island how hard it must be without help - especially if the father is not paying his maintenance which by all rights he should and there should be an avenue to make them pay their dues. Without maintenance a single mother would hypothetically need to claim more benefits from the States that the father could be paying instead.

I admit I have heard of some women not knowing who the dad is but thats mostly on tv. I can actually think of only one case I personally know in Gsy where there were two possible fathers. Interestly what happened is that the male in this scenario had to fight tooth and nail to get DNA testing and access to see his child. There are good fathers too and perhaps we should look at ways to help them being a part of their childrens lives when they want to be and where it would not be of detriment to the child.

90_per_cent_sure

i understand there is considerable angst on Father's Day in certain localities, where mothers regularly find themselves strapped for cash and unable to top up their mobile or pay their Sky, due to the enormous amount of cards they have to send to various gentlemen to make sure all the bases are covered until they can afford to go and see Jezza K for a free DNA.

TOBT

If you don't want to get pregnant, then take steps. Don't sleep around, buy some condoms to go with your pill/coil or whatever other devide you decide to stop yourself getting pregnant with. Simples. I agree with you on the sexism side of things. Personally I would castrate half of the stupid feckless men (and I use the term men lightly) who hang around in there low slung jeans and ridiculous hats, not doing anything. What will they ever give to society? apart from a couple of STI's and a barrow load of unwanted kids. Either that or send them to Mali to be cannon fodder. At least then they will have done something with their sad little lives. As for the women, oh get real. One mistake, perhaps OK. Second mistake - get your tubes tied love. Just once, I would like really hard working people to be given the sort of breaks these ineffectual women are offered. Where else in the world would you find a "mother" (in name only) with three children, three different fathers, being given a States House, and not expected to pay a thing. She is probably living quite close to you, keep an eye out - she's one of the many hanging around Town when the rest of us are working, in her fake Ugg boots and too much fake tan. Guernsey is becoming Chav central. For goodness sake Guernsey, get a grip.

Sounds like I am bitter? You betcha.

A.J.

I don't think J.T.even intimated "however minor or how long ago,".

Personally I agree with his sentement.

We are almost as soft here as they are in the UK regarding immigration,come to think of it, I read many years ago that this Island had more people per square mile than Bangladesh and more vehicles per mile than the city of Los Angeles.

Chris Green

I must say I do strongly welcome this new approach to deportation. As things stand, the Guernsey Courts can only ever make a recommendation for deportation. The ultimate decision is then one for Lt Governor to make. However, I have long thought it problematic that the Courts would only ever recommend deportation in cases where the most serious crimes had been committed. That inadvertantly gave free reign to those offenders who racked up many offences at a lower level, safe in the knowledge that they would never be deported.

I therefore think that it is wholy right that the Courts will now be able to consider deporting an individual if they have committed a number of lower level offences like drink driving or public order offences. Our island can well do without troublemakers of all kinds, including those from overseas.

Neil Forman

Excellent post!

TOBT

Dani - really? Purlease.

Paaarp!!

What's the definition of confusion? Father's Day down Les Genats.......

Neil Forman

Paaarp!!

I resent that remark!

I was raised on Les Genats, I still visit on mothers & fathers day, 42 years later. The problem these days are as Dani & Spartacus say, men ( if you can call them that ) having their good time and then walking away.

I was raised to respect family values and have instilled this in my children, I have only got one woman pregnant and I married her. We are still together and very happy.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush, many living in States Housing are hard working families on low wages doing their best.

Spartacus

I agree with Dani, the stigma of all single mothers is unreasonable. Maybe there are a few who feel they have no other viable options than to start a fatherless family at a young age and therefore be protected by the state, but I don't think there are as many as some believe. This in itself is a sad situation in this day and age.

In any case the concern is, I feel, disproportionate to the real problems of society.

Benefit cheats or tax avoidance which deserves more focus?

https://twitter.com/jonathanglennie/status/298886102117388288/photo/1

Neil Forman

Spartacus

I agree with you here for once.

I know a few so called men who think nothing of unprotected sex and who walk away when the inevitable happens.

It is time we got harder on these people and make them contribute to their children's upbringing properly.

Quizzed

The Island NEEDS foreign labour to satisfy certain industries

The Island DOES NOT need foreign criminals of a serious or petty nature. We have to rehabilitate local offenders to work with society. We should not have to go to those lengths with none locals/qualified persons

It is a draw on local resources that we don't need.

If we can minimise the risks to the community by removing the issue lets do it. We pay a lot of money for the security of Guernsey and the people within it.

Lets continue to welcome the workforce we need and where necessary, weed out the problems! About time.