'Weak leadership' is to blame for States failure

MAJOR failures in the States are the fault of ‘weak political leadership’, Housing minister Dave Jones told Chamber of Commerce members yesterday.

Deputy Dave Jones addressing the chamber of Commerce lunch.

MAJOR failures in the States are the fault of ‘weak political leadership’, Housing minister Dave Jones told Chamber of Commerce members yesterday.

Deputy Jones, pictured, said it was for this reason that ministers were paid the ‘princely sum’ of £46,000 each year to get it right.

Addressing a packed lunch, he said: ‘Being a minister is about taking responsibility for the running of your department and the services that department delivers.

‘If the department is failing the public, then is not the fault of the civil servants or the public or your PR company, if you have one. It is the fault of weak political leadership.'

Comments for: "'Weak leadership' is to blame for States failure"

soph

Got it right in one Dave

Hopeful

Addressing a packed lunch, eh?! Hope it was a healthy one ;-)

Dave Jones

Hopeful/Mark

The cucumber sandwich walked out halfway through.

Mark

"Addressing a packed lunch" I've heard people talking to their food but this is just ridiculous!

vic gamble

I think there may be a couple of typos in there..."Dave Jones' address had a packed

punch?"

concerned

On this we all agree. Get rid of the lot of them and call an election with island wide voting. This is the worst government Guernsey has EVER had. Sack the lot of them, we pay their wages and the ineptitude and lack of compass is damaging the reputation of the island, which is a sackable offence.

On another note, I wonder if Deputy Jones will get "the call" into the Bailiffs office and asked to calm down because he is making too much noise.

Rufus

....said the weak leader

bcb

Can`t see many in agreement with you here.

Spartacus

I believe there are widespread failings and inefficiencies within the housing department and waste and mismanagement of public money.

Dave Jones

Spratacus

Perhaps you could enlighten me where these widespread failings and inefficiencies and waste and mismanagement of public money within the housing department are.

I would be very happy to discuss with you or anybody else the accusations you make.

GM

Dave Jones

Be warned - in a few weeks time you will have lost the will to live.

Remember one thing before you engage in battle with Spartacus - she will never, ever, accept that she is wrong. A bit like Richard Murphy in drag....

Good luck!

Spartacus

Dave Jones

I hope I have not offended you I believe you work extremely hard and are committed and passionate. Mine is a genuine criticism not personal.

There are some things which I feel are working great.

Nevertheless I see financial waste and inefficiency in social housing provisions. I see inefficiency and failings in the housing licence system. I see inadequacies in controls over private property rentals. I see inadequacy in private property law. Laws and systems are inadequate to protect rights and living conditions of everyone generally.

Housing conditions are good in Guernsey for those who are wealthy and for some who are covered by Social security or housing association but everyone outside of those groups has inadequate support from the systems when problems arise.

I believe the housing department should be working closely together with HSSD to ensure the inadequacies in private sector and social housing is not adding to the problems of physical and mental health on the island. Perhaps you can reassure me?

Gilthead

Spartacus

I'm neither wealthy (whatever that is) nor in social housing.

Also I am neither in poor physical condition or going round the bend.

And amazingly where I live is very nice.

You might need to get out a bit more.

Dave Jones

GM

I am ready mate, Truly

Spartacus

Guilthead

I am so pleased you are in good health and everything is rosy in your garden, at the moment.

bcb

And you have obtained this information from what source Sparty?.

Steer-ing_wheel

All power to your elbow, Dave.

Despite the fact she's just an 'everyday mum', apparently, Sparty's knowledge - and passionate involvement - in everything to do with the defence of the civil service (or as I call it, the self serving service), and near constantly taking the opponent stance on certain other political topics, is legendary, and she will argue black is white 'til the cows come home.

.....you see, unfortunately, since she lost the day job, Sparty's only involvement with the Education Dept is doing the school run, and to go from wielding so much power to only having control over the steering wheel must smarts rather.

Bless.

Spartacus

Scarlett

Sherlock Holmes would have had no competition from you. I'm not Carol Steer and have never said I'm a mum I said I'm a parent.

I defend injustice generally and have no bias towards the civil service. The only political power I have ever had is in my freedom of speech and putting an x in a box on a voting slip.

I'm flattered that you describe my style as legendary. You are pretty good at making your points too when you stop bitching and get on with it.

Steer-ing_wheel

'The only political power I have ever had is in my freedom of speech and putting an x in a box on a voting slip'....

certainly that's all you have now, thank god.

Spartacus

There is no god ;-p

Scarlett old boy, if you feel you need to be condescending to make you feel good about yourself then it's better to direct it at me than sixteen year old Ed. Mind you I doubt it bothers him any more than it bothers me.

You have so much more to offer than putting others down and speculating on nonsense. I'm surprised you indulge yourself.

bcb

There is no God? wow sparty you have just solved the biggest question ever asked by mankind. You really do know it all eh:)

Spartacus

bcb

Ha ha I can't take credit for that! It was Darwin.

Dave Jones

Peter now now

JohnT

We all know this, and those so called leaders know who they are, but we just carry on whilst the island slowly sinks into the fyong.

Would the last person to leave please turn off the lights.

Dave Jones

Spartacus

I don’t get offended easily I have skin thicker than a rhinoceros hide.

Let me start at the beginning of your post. You have told me where you see these inadequacies but you have not told me what they are, which makes it impossible for me to address your points on the specific housing issues. Although on Housing licence we are hoping to scrap that law soon and have a new work and residents permit system. You say “you see financial waste and inefficiency in social housing provisions”, but again you don’t give me any examples of what they are.

However on the other issues of control of private rental, this is NOT in Housings mandate.

The condition of private rental properties is a matter for Environmental Health officers to police not housing staff.

On property law, this clearly is a job for the law officers, or the States as a whole to instruct the law officers through legislation to address the shortcomings you have mentioned but again this is not in the remit of the States Housing Department.

On your last point I can say categorically that we do work with HSSD and with SSD closely on all housing issues.

Spartacus

Dave Jones

One example of waste is under occupancy of social housing. Inefficiency is evident from waiting lists and transfer lists. Waste is apparent due to properties lying empty for years.

Inadequate laws are not your fault but you are in a position to bring pressure for flaws to be addressed as a priority. Instead finance matters seem to be a priority for law officers.

I would like the priority list of laws to be published on the States website and last year you kindly offered to make enquiries about this, is this priority list going to be published?

Dave Jones

Spartacus

That would be true if we were not dong anything about it but that clearly is not the case, the last 24 homes that have become empty are because they have moved to smaller properties up at the new Clos Barbier site, these were all people under occupying.

All 42 of the new bungalows at Victoria avenue are all occupied by people who once lived in family homes to large for them, many at the old bus garage development are in small apartments because they once under occupied family homes. The same is true of Delancy Court and Rosair so I am afraid your charge is unfounded do we still have some yes we do and when the second phase of the Bouet is finished and the new Brock road development, we will have more smaller units to move those people to, freeing up more family homes.

How can having a waiting and transfer list be inefficient? You might be able to argue that it is because of a lack of social housing and I would agree with you. also the refurbishment of properties is not wasteful and you have to empty them to do so, that’s like saying all the homes we demolished was a wasteful exercise, Cour du Parc has been empty longer than we would have likes I will grant you but we work with the resources available and GHA are working on that site now. I am not aware of properties that are empty for years some take time to refurbish because they are completely gutted after being continually occupied for decades. But taking the Corporate Housing programme as a whole, I am extremely pleased with the way it has gone. There is still much more to do.

On your last point I think the press did publish the list (Ed can you help?)

I have to say you really are all over the place, make up your mind what you want to have a go about and I can direct you to the right people.

Thisisguernsey

Here's a link to that list on the States' site - http://www.gov.gg/stateslegislativeprogramme

Spartacus

Dave Jones

You are doing something about it? Well that's good to hear. That's what your department is supposed to have been doing for the past decades. And for the years you have been in power I realise you cannot do everything immediately it takes time.

I gather the Clos Barbier site properties are also under occupied but you might disagree.

I think waiting on a transfer list for 19 years following a heart attack for a more suitable single story property seems inefficient. I'm referring to Pam's case which was highlighted in the media on TV and in the press. Maybe this is due to lack of suitable social housing but there must be other options which could have been considered over a 19 year period.

I'm not all over the place however I realise I am not one of your TIG fanbase as that seems to be the right wing lot. I expected you to put up a robust defense you always do and that's fine. Some see this as strong leadership some see it as excuses I just want to make sure you are doing all you can to help those in need and to that end I will try to keep you on your toes. You have been voted to your post democratically and I'm sure you are dedicated so that is as much as I can ask of you.

Spartacus

TIG

Thanks for the link to the legislation list.

Dave Jones

I was hoping this list would cover more than the 3 months of legislation being processed imminently. I would like to see the priority list which includes long awaited items such as the long overdue new mental health law and the new education law etc.

I would like to see this list extended to everything which is in the pipeline after all such a list must exist so why would this not be published?

bcb

You seem very uptight Sparty? are you missing GM? or are you just looking for another ongoing debate(argument)?.

plp

Bcb - every hero has a nemesis. Holmes had Moriarty, Superman had Lex Luther, Sparty has GM :-)

Martino

@ plp

A bit of role reversal going on there. Don't you mean GM has Sparty?

Spartacus

Dave Jones

In your post of 20 February at 1.58pm you stated

"on the other issues of control of private rental, this is NOT in Housings mandate."

However the housing policy plan 2011-2016 as linked below states that the Housing department is responsible for

"Establishing initiatives to improve the affordability, availability and quality of the private rental sector without reducing its size."

http://www.gov.gg/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=5448&p=0

Dave Jones

Spartacus

That is correct but we do not police the private rental sector that is the job of the Environmental health department.

We played a leading role in setting up the Guernsey Private Landlords Association which has worked with Housing to improve the private rental sector, tenancy agreements and a better deposit system etc.

We also presented to the States a package of proposals aimed at improving the quality and affordability of the private rented sector.

We are aware that there are many poorer families living in private sector accommodation paying high rents, this in some cases results in rent induced poverty for these families, as a disproportionate amount of their income often goes in rent, leaving very little for all their other basic needs, which is why we reviewed our eligibility criteria in order to take on board the disposable income after rent in the private rental sector.

As I said it is not the job of the States Housing officers to go round inspecting the conditions of private rental property.

Spartacus

Dave Jones

Thank you that is more reassuring and I understand your point about inspecting living conditions however Housing are responsible for ensuring poor conditions do not arise in the first place.

I will try to find details of the package of proposals for improving the private rental sector. If you could point me in the right direction or give me an idea of when this was presented to the States it would help me find the information on the notoriously difficult States website.

If the social housing criteria is amended due to high rental values in Guernsey and this allows you to accept more tenants into social housing I see that as an increased problem rather than a solution.

Island Wide Voting

Good anti-paid parking letter from Dave in today's Press

I wonder if he brought up the subject while addressing the packed lunch?Presumably the President of the Chamber of Commerce was in attendance.He has recently come out in favour of paid parking so Rosie has a least one high profile supporter besides the usual tax and spend Deputies

I wonder how that happened?

Also in today's Press letters .. an alternative to paid parking ( a stealth tax which won't affect anyone with access to private business parking slots .. such as the President of the Chamber of Commerce ???)

The writer suggests an annual parking clock .. different colour each year .. costing £25 - £30 .. which would mean that almost every motorist in the island would contribute to whatever the States decides to waste the income on

Easy to raise it by a pound or two as and when required

Spartacus

Island Wide Voting

The real estate on which parking provision is made is worth a fortune. Therefore by failing to earn income on this land the taxpayer is already paying a huge price for parking facilities. Taxpayers who do not drive, such as lower paid and pensioners, are paying for it without any personal benefit.

I agree with those who believe that excessive car use on this island is causing problems. Multiple car families are causing parking problems on private and public land outside of town as well. Excessive traffic on roads deters the healthy pursuits of walking and cycling and is an excuse for kids to stay indoors on their xbox.

I thought the idea of the new parking clock was quite innovative but I agree with your concern of yet another stealth tax. £20-£30 is too low to be any kind of deterrent. The petrol tax already incorporates parking and road facility costs.

The whole issue needs a smarter overall solution. I believe car users should pay for facilities and multiple car families and larger car owners should be penalised.

Motorists need alternative options such as an effective bus service, or better park and ride schemes. Town workers, shoppers and users could take advantage of this without detriment to town businesses.

After school facilities for younger children would relieve the pressure on parents who argue that they need their cars. I hope deputies Yvonne Burford and Barry Brehaut are reviewing the matter laterally to identify other solutions to the underlying problems which cause people to use their cars and not just focusing solely on the transport systems per se.

Ted

Now now, Sparty, you can't have it both ways. Either "Taxpayers who do not drive...are paying for it (parking) without any personal benefit" or "The petrol tax already incorporates parking and road facility costs".

Spartacus

Ted

The petrol tax incorporates a small charge for parking and roads but I do not believe this covers the commercial value of the town parking facilities. Not by a long way.

Dave Jones

I pay for children to go to our schools through my taxes, although I dont have any of my own children in the education system at present.

That is how communities work ,we all pay for things we don’t necessarily benefit from personally.

Spartacus

Dave Jones

Are you suggesting that you do not stand to benefit from the future workforce of Guernsey being educated? If all children who were unable to fund their own education were uneducated and unemployable it would bring down our society.

concerned

Oh come on spartacus. Daves comment was a perfectly reasonable one, your being ridiculous. I agree with you about housing not being perfect, I'm by no means their biggest fan, I have been a victim and dealt serious injustice by housing myself in the past. But Dave is right we don't always benefit from things our taxes go towards. I'd rather not subsidise baby factories but I don't get that choice.

Spartacus

concerned

What would you rather do about "baby factories"?

That's a good complex one.

concerned

Spartacus. A good complex one indeed. Probably not worth taking the time to debate as we will never be in that position. As I already said we don't get to say how our taxes are used. Essentially in an ideal world I'd keep helping the genuine cases, and in situations where the system is being abused by women/couples using children as a career option, I'd cut them off completely.

guern abroad

Introduce a sliding scale of child benefit for baby factories, in that the more you have the less you get per additional child but there is enough money if you budget well.

If you earn over a certain amount you get no child benefit, but forward date it so public know when changes will kick in so will be less directly hit.

And no we are all not the same unless we start taxing fully again the fact is that Guernsey can not support all being the same, money has to be there for the needy to be able to provide the right support. Baby factories are not the needy.

Island Wide Voting

Spartacus

With 84,000 plus registered vehicles in the island just how many non driving taxpayers do you think there are?

I believe the current 46.35p per litre fuel tax just disappears into the big tax melting pot,from which such projects as North Beach were funded ( and from which the AFR and foreign fishermen brown envelope secret payments were made

By the way.Is your campaign against a taxpayer funded abattoir anything at all to do with you being a vegetarian?

Spartacus

Island Wide Voting

It is irrelevant how many there are in my view you have to ask whether it is an expensive facility that benefits society as a whole.

I would like to see exactly how the fuel tax is spent.

Re the abattoir, that's like saying is the fact that I am not religious got anything to do with not wanting to pay rates towards the churches. Even if I was religious or carnivorous I still wouldn't think it was right for others to contribute towards the expense of my controversial hobby.

Dave Jones

Concerned

am sorry if that was the case.

concerned

Dave. A few years ago now so probably not worth going over (and certainly not on a public forum), but thanks for taking the trouble to respond.

Dave Jones

I don't know the answer to the list question

The new mental health law is up for debate this month

Dave Jones

Spratacus

I have been Minister for 9 years and in that time we have addressed vigorously the issue of under occupation and other problems you raised.

We have also had a massive new build and refurbishment programme in that time which has improved the social housing stock on this island immeasurably. So I will take no lessons from you as to what I should have been doing in my time at the Housing department.

While it is true people can be on the transfer list for years, the desire to move is not the same as the need to move and if you are adequately housed then we will address those on the waiting list as a priority first, rather than those who would like to live somewhere of their choice.

I also spoke to Pam and her husband and she clearly understood that point.

How on earth is Clos de Barbier under occupied?

Finally I don’t need a “fan base”, I do the job to the best of my ability and if and when that ceases to be the case, then I am absolutely convinced the electorate will very quickly dispense with my services and put me out to grass, so until then I will continue to do the job my fellow States members have entrusted to me and my board.

Spartacus

Dave Jones

Who is giving lessons? I have offered you an opportunity to explain and you are doing so. I understand that housing problems take years to resolve.

Regarding Pam's case it was apparent from the news reports that she put their names on the transfer list due to medical need.

You have previously said that Clos de Barbier is occupied by couples occupying two bed homes in case they want visitors to stay over. This seems extravagant as many couples cannot afford even a one bed home on the private market.

Dave Jones

Spartacus

Clos de Barbier properties are built to life time standards which means that as people get older they can stay in their own home instead of moving into a residential home or some other option.

If you saw the size of the spare room I don’t think you would describe it as “extravagant”

These small extra rooms are there in case a carer wants to live in or in the mean time a member of the family if one or both residents get sick for period of time and also so children and grandchildren can stay for a visit, not all tenants relatives still live on the island.

Or they can use the extra space for a hobby or other activity if they choose.

These people are not battery hens and our job is to provide decent accommodation for those who wish to access this kind of housing.

We cannot base what we do on what happens in other housing tenures or the opinions of those who appear envious of the space other have.

Spartacus

Dave Jones

Thank you for the additional information on Clos de Barbier. I would not begrudge anyone a decent comfortable home. I am very grateful to be in the fortunate position of being a home owner myself.

However you do your job so well that you must have a loyal and growing list of customers.

On the other hand I believe there are many living in private accommodation who are like battery hens and struggling to be independent and if they need a carer or overseas family to stay they do not have the luxury of a spare room. Nor would they have need of the luxury of a hobby room as they are probably working all hours to maintain independence in an overpriced property market.

I realise this is not housing department's responsibility but for the states as a whole to consider. Our elected representatives, such as yourself have a duty to all groups and housing tenures so that no one should feel they would be better off in social housing than living independent lives.

islander

SPARTACUS

Have you lost your way? This is not the housing tread its about weak government.

Spartacus

Islander

I don't believe Guernsey has a weak government so I'm not sure who Dave Jones was alluding to in his speech.

There are examples of failings, inefficiencies and waste to be found throughout the system, it will never be perfect.

Spartacus

Dave Jones

Michael Hesletine said essentially the same thing as me on Newsnight last night.

"Why should the vast majority of people at work pay to sustain families who are out of work at higher living standards?" That is a moral issue.

You mentioned "those who appear envious of the space of others" and I think you need to think very seriously about this comment and whether this situation you are creating whereby those in private housing are apparently envious of those on benefits.

If you listen to the wider discussion in question time and the problem of London becoming a place where only the wealthy can afford to live due to government policy, you can easily draw parallels with Guernsey and I suspect this is one of the pivotal problems we have as an island.

As you are aware I lean towards the left and cannot stand the demonisation of those on benefits however it is political policy such as this which stirs up ill will and envy increasing the demonisation against exactly the same people you are trying to help by providing them with apparently luxurious accommodation that few can afford.

I would not begrudge anyone decent living space however I would hope that it is a priority for the States to sort out the wider housing problems and cost of living on the island and resolve the income and expenditure deficit problems and until that is done perhaps you should consider the capacity of social housing and whether it is appropriate for the taxpayer to be paying for additional bedrooms in case a couple wish to have grandchildren to stay.

Davey West

Well done Deputy for speaking out.

Any possibility of a visit and stirring leadership talk to our Council of Ministers Deputy Jones ? Especially to our esteemed Chief MInister Gorst who has taken personal responsibility regarding the forthcoming enquiry into the roll played by the States of Jersey departments, organisations and affiliated agencies in the breakdown of the care of vulnerable children, which almost the whole world knows suffered appalling treatment while being in care in Jersey.

The States agreed almost two years ago for the need for a robust and far reaching enquiry. Verita consultants were commissioned by the Chief MInister and came up with a strong set of terms of reference to get this sorted. The States generally were in favour except for a hand full of ministers..

No good said CM Gorst, then commissioned another separate report by Mr Williamson ? and liked the attitude of no one is to be held responsible, a softer approach.

This new Williamson report was fatally flawed giving facts which were incorrect, so the States discounted it.

Where are we now , postponed again. Not fair to the abuse survivors, not fair to decency, not fair to the majority of Jersey residents as the CM and his Ministers show no enthusiasm to get to the truth and start to rebuild Jersey's diminished international reputation

Any help would be appreciated.

Local paper article , third time the debate has been delayed in it appears to be an effort to soften the stiff broad broom to a soft paintbrush.

As reported by the local media.

Wide ranging,

http://www.thisisjersey.com/news/2012/11/06/child-abuse-inquiry-to-be-open-ended/

The news comes 18 months after the States overwhelmingly backed a move from Senator Francis Le Gresley for such an inquiry to take place and a year after independent UK consultants Verita

http://www.thisisjersey.com/news/2012/10/29/historical-child-abuse-inquiry-due-next-year/

PROPOSALS for a three-pronged review into historical child abuse and decisions not to prosecute alleged offenders have been rejected by the Jersey Care Leavers’ Association.

http://www.thisisjersey.com/news/2012/09/26/care-leavers-reject-plan-for-three-pronged-review/

Davey.

http://www.thisisjersey.com/news/2013/02/18/historical-abuse-inquiry-delayed-until-next-month/

Davey

Dave Jones

Spartacus

What on earth are you on about, it was your statement that people pay for things they dont benifit from and I quote what you said

"Taxpayers who do not drive, such as lower paid and pensioners, are paying for it without any personal benefit".

I mearly pointed out that as a community we all pay for things we don't personally benifit from.

Spartacus

Dave Jones

"We all pay for things we don't personally benefit from."

Unless a service is beneficial to society as a whole I do not agree that the government has any justification for using taxpayer money to pay for it. Thats just my opinion.

Education of all children benefits them individually but also benefits society as a whole. I don't think the same can be said of using valuable real estate for motorists to park their cars on.

Again that just my opinion and open to debate.

Dave Jones

The taxpayers own it, of course they should pay for it.

GM

So vegetarians shouldn't allow their taxes to be used to pay for an abattoir?

Spartacus

Dave Jones

But taxpayers don't profit or benefit from the owning of the abattoir building do they? Do the private enterprises using it pay a commercial fee for the use?

Dave Jones

Spartacus

This is why I say you are all over the place, you tell us all that you lean towards the left and then hold up as an example of the view point of one of the most rabid right wing politicians on the planet.

I don’t think that building modern decent housing, should only be available to those in work, which seems to be what you are advocating, if you a following the Heseltine argument.

I also don’t accept that providing decent affordable social housing “stirs up ill will and envy” or that the homes we provide through Housing and the GHA could be described as “luxurious” by any stretch of the imagination.

The comment I made about “those who appear envious of the space of others” was aimed at you, as I have not had any other comments from other people on this specific point.

Finally we will continue to provide decent housing with decent living space in our development programme in spite of all the other issues you have mentioned which the States need to tackle, we are not going to change that policy as long as I have anything to do with it.

Spartacus

Dave Jones

perhaps it would be simplest if you could answer Michael Heseltine's question.

"Why should the vast majority of people at work pay to sustain families who are out of work at higher living standards?”

Clearly you feel this policy of high living standard in social housing is justified and I don't disagree with you. Nevertheless I believe this is a fair question and it is a question of equality which fits in with my lefty tendencies.

I was not suggesting for a moment that modern decent housing should only be available to those who work, and nor was Michael Heseltine, absolutely not. The point which you are overlooking is that it is NOT available for many who work due to the escalation of housing costs in Guernsey.

You participate enough on this forum to know full well that there is rampant "ill will and envy” towards those in social housing, please don't try to stick your head in the sand.

No I'm not one of those who is envious of those in social housing, and you have probably read enough of my posts to know that. I am fortunate to have been independent. You are using this as an excuse to avoid the issue.

I have not asked you to change your housing policy I have asked you to pay attention, as a deputy and policy council member, to the wider problem for those in private housing so that there is not a mismatch. Think about Michael Hesltine's question and ask yourself why are hardworking individuals who remain independent nevertheless too often forced to live in substandard accommodation in Guernsey like battery hens?

You give a good talk but please try to listen to people too.

Dave Jones

Spratacus

I will consider myself chastised.

You have your opinions which differ to mine and thats fine.

When you have my job you will be able to make all the changes you wish, if you can get the majority of the States to agree with you.

Spartacus

The States don't need me to be in your job to make changes. They don't all agree with you 100% of the time either. That's the nature of humanity and democracy, different opinions but common goals. It is the task of our elected representatives to reconcile these differences in order to achieve the common goals not merely to impose their own views driven by the vanity of achieving their own specific objectives.

Thanks for listening. Have a good weekend.

Island Wide Voting

Dave Jones

You are big enough and old enough to take care of yourself but haven't you got a States Meeting to prepare for next week?

If you continue to dip your toe into what you initially believed to be a short sharp exchange of opinions with Spartacus you will soon find yourself engulfed in a glutinous quagmire of 'evidence based'counter arguments and a never ending barrage of further open ended questions until you lose the will to live

You are up against a premier league debating machine with an off button malfunction

Pull out now man,and save your sanity

GM

Dave Jones

Don't say I didn't pre-warn you!

Dave Jones

GM

I know I know.

Premier league pigeon

Dick Dastardly @ 3.21pm and Muttley @2.37pm. Have a great weekend :-)

Sparty

Martino

As I found out below.

She reminds me of the Black Knight in Monty Python. Even after you've chopped off all the limbs of her argument she still comes back for more. You;ve got to know when to get out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

Island Wide Voting

Martino

A perfect,absolutely perfect match

GM Don't miss it!

Dave Jones

Spartacus

The States have supported overwhelmingly every single Housing policy report that I have put before the States in 9 years.

That includes the full Corporate Housing Programme which is presented every two years, with an update of Housings work plan and partnership with the Guernsey Housing Association, together with individual Housing policies on Extra Care housing and NCH Youth Housing Project(now known as (Action for Children) as well as all previous Housing need surveys.

We have had a 100% success rate in getting all those policies passed.

Spartacus

Dave Jones

That may well be the case and I would like to see the evidence of a 100% success rate in implementing those policies.

Fortunately the majority of the States do not agree with your ideas on bringing back corporal punishment in schools.

Steer-ing_wheel

Martino, she does know, it's when she's had the last word.

I see she's now wandered off onto the subject of the abattoir/vegetarianism again, obviously doesn't feel she hammered the point home by boring the t*ts off us all on the last comments board.

Still, I s'pose it's an outlet for her, just being a 'ordinary mum' an' all, with half term to contend with.

JamieC

Good. So how much did the AFR scandal cost?

Dave Jones

Spartacus

You really are high maintenance.

The community as a whole benefits from the abattoir by not having the rotting carcases of dead animals lying about the place and a humane way of dealing with animals that need to be dispatched properly.

It is owned by the States as a community facility and proper charges are made to those who have need of it, which help pay for its running costs.

How on earth this thread ever got to the point of discussing the attributes of the islands abattoir heaven only knows.

Spartacus

Anyone who kills their animals inhumanely is accountable under animal welfare provisions. Anyone who leaves an animal to rot is accountable under environmental health laws. Taxpayers already pay for these laws and enforcement.

Owners of animals are responsible for their disposal. Why should the public subsidise other peoples privately owned animals?

You made a choice to discuss the abattoir on this thread. I'm grateful that you did and I like it when the threads digress to other topics.

If I am high maintenance that must mean I am making you work hard for your reward of the "princely sum" of £46K :-)

Martino

I wouldn't bother engaging with Spartacus on this one Dave. She is right at the extreme end of the veggie/vegan fanatic spectrum and can't even begin to accept the sort or rational, moderate case that you make for an abattoir.

Spartacus

Martino

Please can you explain the difference between my stance on the abattoir and your stance on supporting religious institutions through parish rates.

http://www.thisisguernsey.com/news/2012/02/24/church-rates-delay-fails/#comment-123807

Martino

An abattoir is a necessary public facility that requires public funding, a religious institution is not. It is quite simple Sparty but you can't see it because of your barking mad vegan political agenda that practically nobody else on the island shares or recognises.

Spartacus

Life would go on and the public would be healthier if there was no abattoir. Obviously it is not necessary and the justification for funding it is weaker than funding a tofu factory.

And you can't speak for anyone else!

Michael R

Spartacus, the obesity problem is directly related to people eating too much vegetable matter and not adopting a mainly protein diet.

Added to this, there are relatively few healthy vegetarians about ( let alone vegans, who tend to suffer from beefy tongue) and so a modern hygienic slaughter house is an asset to the island's health strategy.

Martino

To say the public would be healthier without an abattoir is simply preposterous. The exact opposite is the case. A well run abattoir that meets modern day health and hygiene standards is absolutely necessary for a healthy local meat industry and is a proper use of public funds. You are blinded by your extremist vegan ideology.

Spartacus

Martino

I take your point that if people decide to eat red meat it must be processed under modern hygiene standards to ensure the food is safe to eat. That does not justify subsidising it though. It merely justifies regulation and enforcement of relevant laws.

Do you feel that all private food processing facilities, which also require safety measures, should be subsidised?

My point was that red meat carries a government health warning and therefore people should be encouraged to find their protein and vitamin requirements from other sources which do not have a health warning.

Spartacus

MichaelR

I would agree that people in general often eat inadequate protein however this can go too far the other way and there has been a lot of publicity in relation to the health concerns of popular high protein diets. A healthy balanced diet should be the aim.

Greater awareness through education of the various healthy vegetarian protein options available would be beneficial.

The evidence I have seen contradicts what you say about vegetarians. I believe they are generally healthier however anyone is fallible to the effects of a poor diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Health_benefits_and_concerns

Martino

Yawn, I give up. I think most people can see your veggie propaganda for what it is.

Spartacus

The counter argument to carnivorous propaganda.

Johno

Rufus

You can say what you like about Dave Jones, but 'weak' is not one of them.

If we had more straight talking, common sense politicians like Dave we would be in a far better position than we currently are.

Cyber Matt

Part of the problem is that the government structure itself does not exactly lend itself to strong, dynamic leadership on policy and planning. Even if you had strong political individuals, capable of providing consistently strong leadership, they are still going to be often frustrated by the consensus-based, committee system. It seems to take ages to do or achieve anything over here. And then the States will just stand in the way of change. Dave Jones is essentially right and we should blame the States' failings on weak leadership; but the system is as much to blame as the individuals concerned.

milly

we have had a useless states ever since we stated paying them.bring back the proper business men who did the job unpaid and ran it as if it was a business of theirs .

A.J.

Over the past years we have seen many changes to our Government,including the re-modelling,and finally the extinction of the Conseilleur system, as well as the paying of Deputies, Are we any better off? Have things improved? No!

All these ideas had at least one effect,to use a sporting comment, "We took our eye off the ball."

Concentration and Dedication should be pre-requisites for anyone elected to serve the people. Mr Dave Jones is one of the few with these attributes. If we had many more like hime, this Island of ours would be in a much better shape.

islander

Well put Deputy Dave Jones.Now lets wait for a response from our elected Deputies who have become president of a States Department.

Can they steer the ship on the right course?

Can they unload wasted cargo?

Can they open up the hatch for ilegal migrates?

Can they dismiss aggresive passengers?

Can they stop their ship from sinking?

Will they go down with their ship if it sinks?

Digger

Dave Jones for CM i say , i don't agree with all he says but he will call a spade a spade or even a bucket a bucket :-) We need more like Dave who WILL speak out preferably when they know what they are talking about.

Watcher

Digger

Deputy Jones always knows what he is talking about - it is the rest of us who struggle sometimes! ;-)

Digger

Watcher

Sorry i worded it wrong i did not mean Dave like you say its the rest.

markB

I sometimes wonder if Spartacus argues the opposite on purpose.

Are you a creationist Spartacus?

Spartacus

markB

Opposite of what?

No. Who created the creator?

Island Wide Voting

Answer?... The big bang

Why? ... Because! Now eat your greens

vic gamble

Spartacus...obvious answer...another Creator created the Creator...that first Creator was more commonly known as 'man'.

zab

I agree with Dave Jones weak leadership is the reason for States failure, I just don't share the view that the Housing Department is a sucess.

Marty

What a sad bunch you lot are

Go and live in Nigeria or some awful 3rd world country you may then realise what a fantastic privilege it is to live here in guernsey

Spartacus

Island Wide Voting, GM, Martino

I'd love to hear your views on the UK plans for reform of the system relating to under occupancy in social housing and whether you think Guernsey should adopt similar initiatives.

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06272

islander

Spartagus

Do you want a lodger?

Island Wide Voting

GM,Martino

Don't answer. IT'S A TRAP!

Martino

Don't worry, I'm going to 'steer' clear of this one.