'Grass up those who flout housing laws'

HOUSING yesterday called on islanders to anonymously ‘snitch’ on foreign workers who were flouting housing licence laws.

Esther Ingrouille

HOUSING yesterday called on islanders to anonymously ‘snitch’ on foreign workers who were flouting housing licence laws.

The department said it would welcome tip-offs from residents in its ongoing clampdown against potential overseas lawbreakers.

It follows the successful prosecution of a seasonal worker who was fined £1,200 for failing to leave the island for the required three-month period, needed under a short-term licence, for four years running.

Following the verdict, director of housing control Esther Ingrouille, pictured, said the department vowed to investigate information passed on about any of the hundreds of licensed workers in Guernsey, including anonymous ‘snitch’ calls.

Comments for: "'Grass up those who flout housing laws'"

bob

What a joke, so the seasonal worker was fined £1200 for staying here for an extra year.

They most certainly earnt way more than that during that period!

justice in this island is a joke.

gsy boy

Bob - I agree.... this person stayed for a year longer then allowed lets say @15k per year... and got fined 1200 so is still 13,800 better off... this island needs to wake up !!like the fishing last week 4k fish on board so fine was 1.5k island a joke... however 40mph in a 35 limit .....!!

bcb

What has the earnings got to do with it?.

pb falla

Disgusting asking people to grass

notsostoopid

Is it really that disgusting, my partner is not from here and we have to pay a fortune in Visa Fees etc so that my partner can stay, it has been made even harder by these foreigners coming in and bending the rules, grass them all in I say and make it easier for the genuines.

pb falla

How much is a fortune

Sanguine

If fortune was intelligence, then you would be skint.

AJP Taylor

Just like the during the Occupation, locals snitching to the occupying forces...

Paul

Mmmmm. £300 per year, less than £1 per day and still able to work and stay here, that's if you get caught! Not much of a deterrent is it, actually definitely worth the risk, what's the cost of Open market rent against local? Think its time for me to move, I'll keep quiet about it tough.

blondie

You'd be looking at £1200 for a room, often with a shared bathroom, and of course, in shared digs. If you wanted a flat, which are few and far between, it would cost £2500 per month roughly, with OM houses starting at £3k per month.

I lived in an OM houseshare and it was filthy. As the only person that lifted the vacuum cleaner, it was disheartening.

Some of the properties on the Grange (beautiful old houses) look really run down and dirty. They are OM house shares.

Interestingly, if a bank lends on an OM house for a client or their family to live in, and for whatever reason it then becomes a rental property with 11 tenants, they wont be too happy!

Mark

So, if someone is staying on the island illegally but working and paying tax does that mean the Income Tax Office is in receipt of the proceeds of crime?

Hobgoblin

If they have over stayed but continued to work and pay tax and S/S then these two departments would know about them.

Surely if these departments and housing talked to each other then we would'nt need to snitch simple no

King Maker

Plenty of Quislings here, its a local passtime being small minded and ratting on others!

mrspinthepantry

Snitching on neighbours.

Illegal warrant-less midnight raids.

Armed police.

Curfew coming next.

I'm sure there's a book about this somewhere....

guernseyal

There was but the States burnt it.

JamieC

Mrs. Ingrouille might remind herself of the end game of this sort of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

or here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StB

concerned

Minding your own business and "no one likes a tell tale" was a part of my upbringing. I still believe in it and I'm not going against it now.

guernsey fairy

I think that if you know there is some illegal activity going on in the island you should inform the authorities. People are breaking the law and should be held to account for it. Would you just watch someone vandalise a car and not tell the Police? I think not!

Jimmy

Surely the employer should be fined as well or did she just stay living here for 3 months but didn't work anywhere ?

I don't understand why seasonal workers, get a 9 month housing licence but a 12 month tax code, surely as short term they should be taxed month by month. I hear that short term licence holders claim back a large portion of the tax they pay due to this daft system. So they export most of their wages off island and don't pay much tax either so where's the benefits to the Island.

If she didn't work the 3 months one assumes she got ax credited back .. And this was probably more than the fine.

bcb

Everyone is entitled to a tax allowance which is the same for everyone. Are you suggesting these workers pay a higher percentage?. is that not discrimination?.

Jimmy

No I am suggesting if someone is in Guernsey for 9 months and is limited by housing licence then the tax code should be 9/12 of a normal annual code. The person then pays the same tax per month as someone else and when they go home for 3 months they don't claim back half the tax they rightly had to pay.

Gsyboy

Guernsey Fairy- If we reported every "illegal or dodgy activity" in this island most of the elite in this island would be involved!

This case is small fry with some of the things that go on here.

bcb

haha very true.

Charlie G

Whichever way you look at it,snitching,telling tales,grassing,wagging tongues or ratting, etc it all comes down to one thing...a sad society.It is quite unbelievable in this day and age,for a government dept: to ask the Islands population to "Grass up" so called housing law breakers...and surprise surprise,once again we see the word "foreign" be used.

Wake up Housing,the "grass" has been pushing up under your feet for years,for if you were truely wanting to "control",the so called illegal housing;and overstaying, then you should of been working hand in hand with,a)states income tax,b)states social insurance,c)states immigration...and numerous other depts,(steam telephones have long since evapourated).Take a leaf out of the Australian way of doing things.

The human race, has a long sad, and chequered history relating to the so called "good deed",and "do gooding" act of informing,of which the terrible cost to human life... is only to well documented,and sadly, these islands were, part of that history.

The small, disillusioned side of society,that feel it a good idea to "grass" on others, under the misinformed notion, of doing good to the community,need to get real, and join into the civilized way of doing things,and not be the pawns of of a dept's failings.

I for one, will have nothing to do with grassing up of anyone,and the world would be a better place....if we all got on with job of living, and kept our noses out of,other peoples lives,no matter what we believe.

PB FALLA

Post of the week from Charlie G

Spot On

States House

You do what you want but I bet you dont run your own business?

How would you feel of your boss dropped you because on the sly they can pay cash in hand to a non licensed, non local? You'd soon be crying then!

Every single local business owner in Guernsey is at the point now where we are fed up with certain firms winning work because they can throw cheap foreign imported labour at the job. Some big firms rely on it.

A certain MD of a large local building firm goes in the press complaining that the states wont release big capital projects to inject some life in to the local economy. He gets some work and what does he do? Gets non local sub contractors in! A large proportion of their work force is non local. Its a joke. They even go to the prison to get cheapo labour and bear in mind that around half the prisoners are not local either! Anything to avoid paying above minimum wage.

The states should stipulate that a certain proportion of workers on site be local. Whats the point of giving out projects that our taxes are paying for to firms who WILL NOT use local labour.

Island Wide Voting

Good post States House

bcb

Re your comment about the MD of a large Local firm, is spot on.

plonker

When someone keys your car, for example, if i see them i'll make sure i keep my mouth shut and don't grass

Grassy_*rse

...absolutely, plonker, if I see anyone hit Charlie's car on the North Pier, causing extensive damage, even if I know the perpetrator, he can rest assured I will just give the chap a friendly wave and let him drive away...

I won't report it, as I don't want to be labelled a sad 'grass', he wouldn't appreciate that at all....

would you Charlie? According to your rules, that is.

Your criticism is of people who feel they should do the right thing and tell the authorities if they believe someone is breaking the law, rather than the people who are actually engaged in an illegal activity, is a most bizarre way of thinking.

All these 'grass' references do make me chuckle. Where are we, is some sort of London ghetto or an episode of the Sweeney, where small time crooks are being encouraged to go to the cops and 'grass up' the big time crooks? The playground, perhaps, where 'tattle tails' are persona non grata with the cool kids?

No, we're in a small island which is already over populated as it is, and the authorities are encouraging people to make them aware of anyone who's blatantly breaking the rules that the rest of us bend over backwards to abide by.

What on earth is wrong with that?

States House

It shouldn't be too hard! Cant they just go to condor and check out any non local registered van coming over on a one way ticket?

Supergrass

Why stop here , lets grass up the local single parents that claim housing benifits while their working partner shacks up with them , and why not grass the the bad back spongers signed off as unfit for work by gp,s with no morals ,

Geoff

What nobody has mentioned is that the latest figures show that there are 1652 short term licences, also 1604 essential licences and 2015 compassionate licences that makes a total of 5271 people working here on licence and that's the people we know about , no wonder this island is crowded and accommodation is so expensive, the last thing we need is illegal immigrants here as well, if people are breaking the law they need to be caught, just the same as if you see someone shoplifting you need to report them

Nursie

"no wonder this island is crowded and accommodation is so expensive"

Excuse me - some us of do a vital job for this community please don't forget this when making insulting statements.

A.J.

(Nursie.) I think what Geoff was refering to was, 'illegals' (an undesirable fact) and not 'welcome essential employees' such as your good self.

Nursie

In that case apologies for my rudeness.

Interested to Know

If you are indeed a trained nurse, may I please ask from where you were recruited? I only ask, as it seems to be sooooo difficult to recruit local nurses - although there are many currently looking for jobs. Wards are currently closed at the PEH for reasons best known to "der management" and NOT because of understaffing on the surgical wards it has to be said, only on the medical wards (which has not been mentioned terribly often). Where is the local advertising? Why are the HSSD trying to recruit from overseas where there are many language and cultural differences, when they are incapable of placing an ad locally. It defies belief.

Nursie

I am indeed a trained nurse.

My current role was advertised in this publication.

I can fully understand what you are saying here. The HSSD do advertise in nursing journals and I believe on the Royal College of nursing website with their vacancies, as it is assumed that most nurses where ever located would read such publications when looking for employment.

Dave Jones

Also of course, nurses who live in HSSD acomodation don't need Housing licences and can stay in that accomodation while working for HSSD for as long as they wish, many don't because there is a world shortage of good qualified nurses and they can get a job in most countries of their choice.

Dough Boy

Everyone moaning about “foreign workers” had better get used to more expensive meals, and higher prices in shops, and even less competition than is already here, and poorer service if you would rather employ locals (especially those who would work for such a pittance). We are the ones abusing the system – charging extortionate rents to people from less fortunate places in the world while capitalising on their lower cost. Foreign cleaners here, for example, are paid an immorally low wage and many of them live in poor conditioned houses with few legal rights at extortionate cost.

And for those who say “they choose to come here” that is not an attitude of a forward thinking country – they have come to contribute to society just like anyone else, and should not be abused or singled out, just like everyone else. Guernsey's entitlement mentality must stop.

plonker

how about our 400 unemplyed do some of these jobs then there s not the work for illegals. Ah thats right they don't want to

Dave Jones

I am not going to comment on all the individual contributions made on this thread

Other than to say this.

First of all the emotive language used was not from our department or any Housing control staff, the use of the word “Grass” and “Snitch” was contrived by the Press in order to give them an emotive headline.

It is disgraceful in my view, that after approaching the department for an interview on a perfectly legitimate subject, they should then choose to spin what was said by using such emotive language.

Every authority that has responsibility for enforcing the laws of the land relies on intelligence on occasions from the community in making sure that the law is observed.

If those who falsify documents and mislead the department are not pursued, then it is unfair on all those that do observe the conditions of their licences and all other aspects of the Housing control law.

Employers and landlords alike, who take great pains to make sure that the right documents, go with the person here under licence.

Our plea to the public was simply to help the department in making sure it is a level playing field for everybody who is subject to this section of the law, no more no less.

Dep Dave Jones

Housing Minister

QueenBee

I may be missing the point here but if everyone who works has a valid right to work document then surely there is some way of policing the people working here. If not then the employer is to blame for incorrectly employing someone.

We all know that this island relies on "foreign" workers particularly in the hospitality industry because the locals don't want to do menial work.

The employers have the ultimate responsibility for whomsoever they employ so perhaps they should be the ones being fined.

As long as we support a system where locals can't be bothered to work then we are going to need to keep bringing people into the island.

Charlie G

Wow,QueenBee a great blast of fresh air from you,right on !

States House

Yes!

Fine the employer and get rid of the unwanted non essential workers.

Most will be doing work off their own backs, small jobs for private customers cash in hand.

Most employers now are pretty clued up as they can get hammered otherwise. If they aren't then they should be and I pity them if they get found out.

Charlie G

... no wish to get into a slanging match,but as a local,I was for many years involved in my own catering business's,and tourism in general on our island(sucsesfully),but even with the good salary and excelent; and at ease working conditions on offer, the harsh truth was,it was easier trying to get blood out of a stone,than get many of the local workers for the positions on offer,who seemed to prefer spending, their time and money down the local,or getting home for the regular cooked evening meal,then feet up!.. expecting the whole world to owe them a favour,and incredibly many of them, were first in line to moan about "outside" labour,"knicking all our jobs",what a laugh.I say thank heavens for "outside" labour,at least they want to work,and do it professionaly with a smile,but yes, they should stick to their welcome period here.Many shops and eating establishments on the Island are run by "outside" labour,GOOD!cause us locals would soon be moaning, if the local shop, favourite eating house, or local watering hole was closed, cause of the lack of local job seekers.

A water tight system does not exist,never will do, but places like Scandinavia and Australia have it almost 100%..On a small island like ours,where everyone knows everyone, any employer, who flouts the law by paying pitance wages,should be hauled accross the coals, and made an example of,simple as that.

Get real, sadly the world,including these Island,are going to feel the "pinch" harder and harder,and it's human nature to find ever new ways of "cost cutting",especialy when it comes to labour. When the east block countries entered the EU,(many of which were already on their knees financialy),the desperate and emotional search for a better life was a certainty,and anything they could earn in the so called civilised west,was going to be a fortune, to what they MAY of earn't back home.

I certainly,would not cry if i lost my job because of "outside" labour,nor would I stoop low enough to snitch on anyone,never have never will...and maybe those who bleet on all the time about it,should look at their own lives,and see if some give and take is possible,instead of trying to live beyond expectations....and income.

States House

Tell us who your employer is then and we will find him someone without a licence to do your job cheaper.

Oilcan Annie

Dear Deputy Dave Jones,

As a recent reader and very occasional contributor to this site I have been heartened to see a deputy not only quite happy to air his opinion and defend his actions but also for putting a name to them. I may not always agree with you but it is heartening to see someone in government prepared to speak out.

Dave Jones

Annie

I am happy to enter into sensible debate with anyone.

Part of my job as a Deputy is to try and answer questions the public have posed if I can and to explain the policies of my department and other states policies if I am able.

Thank you for your support for this stance

States House

Can you tell us why it is so easy to get a 9 month housing licence for a none essential worker?

All you have to do currently is advertise for 2 or 3 weeks in the social and if no one or no one suitable applies then you are given the licence.

With over 400 unemployed why arent there applicants? Why are certain "job seekers" being allowed to pick and choose? Their "skills" should be taken down when they first go in for benefits and a simple phone call or email from an employer should bring up a match very quickly! Obviously if its something more skilled then there is a chance that wont happen but for a cleaner, KP, someone to tidy a site etc there would be plenty to fill these roles. (Dont mention about having health and safety training as the builder I mentioned doesnt care, they pull ken from the prison and social as they please) Just stop their benefits if they dont accept the job. Why should they be given the choice? They are on our time and money. They can continue to search for another job while in the one the social have pushed them kicking and screaming in to. They dont have to stay there. If they can find something more suitable for their lifestyle then fair play, when they leave the current job the next availablejob seeker fills it.

With our unemployment its a joke that we are giving out licences for people to work in greenhouses, push brushes around, clean hotel rooms etc.

Watcher

What some posters are alluding to above are the eight stages of genocide. Grassing up foreigners is stage two;

http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

2. SYMBOLIZATION: We give names or other symbols to the classifications. We name people “Jews” or “Gypsies”, or distinguish them by colors or dress; and apply the symbols to members of groups. Classification and symbolization are universally human and do not necessarily result in genocide unless they lead to the next stage, dehumanization. When combined with hatred, symbols may be forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups: the yellow star for Jews under Nazi rule, the blue scarf for people from the Eastern Zone in Khmer Rouge Cambodia. To combat symbolization, hate symbols can be legally forbidden (swastikas) as can hate speech. Group marking like gang clothing or tribal scarring can be outlawed, as well. The problem is that legal limitations will fail if unsupported by popular cultural enforcement. Though Hutu and Tutsi were forbidden words in Burundi until the 1980’s, code-words replaced them. If widely supported, however, denial of symbolization can be powerful, as it was in Bulgaria, where the government refused to supply enough yellow badges and at least eighty percent of Jews did not wear them, depriving the yellow star of its significance as a Nazi symbol for Jews.

Grassy_*rse

Watcher, what on EARTH are you on about?

Try upping your meds.

Interested to Know

Grassy dear - he or she is pointing out what can happen in societieswhen things get out of hand. If you cannot see this, then up your own meds. Ask Guernsey old people about how quickly it took for neighbours to grass on neighbours. Not long.

Grassy_*rse

ITK, I appreciate the 'xenophobe' point trying to be made, but it's ridiculous, non comparative and irrelevant.

The war's over.

Ed

"The war's over", that doesn't at all mean that such atrocities can't recur- I am beginning to draw the conclusion that hatred on such a comprehensively violent scale derives from inborn belief in the superiority of what one is or advocates and thus it is ultimately impossible to mitigate the fervent- not pathological- personalities of those involved in such activities or prevent others from taking that course.

Therefore, is it impossible to address the core issue of the hostility that Watcher says certain posters display towards particular groups of people in society...?

Watcher's idea of the eight stages to genocide is relevant, it's just not a superficial examination that many other contributors to TIG do.

Grassy_arse

thank god Half terms over.

Ed

Half term finished last Monday.

Grassy_*rse

Then there's no excuse not to get on with your homework, Ed.

Beanjar

This talk of 'snitching' and 'grasses' is so juvenile. Surely every one of us can decide whether they want to uphold our laws or to break them? What is wrong with assisting the authorities who administer these laws on our behalf? Nothing, and why stop at housing laws? I would go further and offer rewards to anybody responsible for aprehending any lawbreaker and increase fines significantly to make it worthwhile.

concerned

Are you one of those annoying curtain twitchers, just hovering, waiting for your neighbours to make even the slightest infraction, and then straight on the phone? Thats pretty anti-social in itself.

Beanjar

What if I am, 'concerned'? Are you one of those useless spongers who spends half his life trying to make a quick buck at the expense of the rest of us? Then cries like a baby about how unfair life is when he gets caught out? Thats definitely anti-social.

Displaced

Having suffered the torment, upheaval and humiliation of being forcibly repatriated (Housing Dept terminology, not mine!) from Guernsey with my family last year, this issue resinates with me deeply. My wife and I suffered the indignity of being interviewed at length under caution at the police station for illegal occupation of a controlled dwelling, Housing and its autocratic, verging on fascist pursuance of the letter of the law hounded our family, cutting off any source of income available to us, forcing us through the courts to be unceremoniously ejected form our home of nearly 7 years. The comments on this same website relating to our well-publicised dilemma at the time demonstrated the existence of a minority of narrow-minded bigots. Most off those involved closely with our persecution and repatriation from the island were themselves not indigenous to the Bailiwick. Oh the irony, how it still sticks in my throat. Previous comments and references in this thread to the Stasi are not that fanciful based upon my personal experiences.

Grassy_*rse

There's laws we all have to abide by and the Police are employed to enforce them.

Inciteful, though I would say as a welly wearing, narrow minded bigot of the local variety (as your lovely wife may call me) I was actually aware of that, too, Displaced.

...'well-publicised dilemma'...publicised by your own wife, I seem to remember, and based on the fact you took an apparent verbal commitment of a licence extension as a contract to do so, which you failed to get in writing.

Anywho, no harm done, Displaced, I've taken your wife's advice and gone back to picking toms, which with upcoming food shortages, may well be a very lucrative move.

Please pass on my thanks. :)

Oh Dear

umm.....Sir...sir it's "resonates" not "resinates".

I clearly remember how lovely your wife and daughter were on this forum.

As Grassy_*rse just mentioned, you'll be pleased to know that we've all gone back to picking tomatoes.

You cannot say that we're bigoted because we agree with the housing laws. The way you and your family conducted yourselves through those times was enough to get most of us annoyed. Using this forum to insult us as islanders because you were trying to fight against a system that you knew was in place before you took the job.

Coming back a year later isn't going to make us change our minds on the situation.

Those involved with the "persecution" (execution of law) are most likely here on long term licences. As I said we're not bigots, we just dislike it when people insult our island. Just as you'd dislike it if people insulted your place of birth.

Get over it.

Terry Langlois

There is no irony at all. There are plenty of people who come here and work within the system. There is nothing odd in them having an interest in ensuring that others abide by the rules which they are themselves abiding by.

You were not persecuted. The rules which apply to everyone were applied to you. Accept it.

Johno

concerned

Trust me when you see work going to outside labour who you know MUST almost certainly be living illegally, you would snitch too.

No problem with competition but all play by the same rules.

Interested

Deputy jones, thank you for your answers on here. Please could you tell me if jobs have to be advertised if there is an application to extend a 3, 5 or 7 year licence to check that there are no locals available.

Dave Jones

Interested

As a general rule yes but not on all occasions, it depends on the circumstances.

For instance if a construction company want to extend a licence for one of their engineers for say two years because a project has over run or they want him to do extra work on another project in the pipe line, then they would not have to advertise the post as it is continuity they are looking for in that case. However we would make it very clear that the licence has been extended on those specific terms alone.

Other licences can be extended without having to re advertised in some of our public services for instance but I also need to add that it is not the norm and we will insist that jobs are advertised before any licence is given, even in the case of some extensions.

Interested

Thank you. I think that as there aren't many jobs all should be advertised including states ones before a licence is extended.

States House

You can only get a longer term licence if you are an essential worker like a teacher, nurse etc.

I know for a fact of some companies who have managed to get certain non locals longer term licences and these non locals have no qualifications and the jobs they are performing are far from essential!

I have no idea how they have managed to get around the system but perhaps the companies involved have managed to spin some fantastic tale of how the island will just not run without these non locals.

Johno

Displaced

No sympathy I'm afraid, you knew the rules when you signed up.

Displaced

I didn't know, that's my point. Because I was deliberately and cleverly misled and coerced during the recruitment process. End of. Water under the bridge now. Fabulous return on my investment.

open ur eyes

Displaced, most people, when moving their whole family to a new place, would check out all the information before even coming. There is plenty information about licences and that when the time is up you either have to leave or move into open market if you want to stay....what happened is you thought the rules did not apply to you, you heard what you wanted to hear and chose to ignore the reality, and then bleated when you found out the rules did actually apply for you.

I shall get back to my tomato picking now...

sarnia expat

Displaced, I don't think you are eminently qualified for any job, if you cannot work out the basics before you sign on the dotted line. Fancy getting all stroppy because you have been asked to abide by the rules of your licence.

Oh Dear

Cleverly misled? Of course you mean you didn't read the contract.

Paul

Displaced, clearly it's not end of or you wouldn't still be looking for relevant threads to continue with your gripe at Guernsey. Seems to me you had a very good return on your investment and should move on for your own sake.

John

Should we care or even Carre what Displaced has to add, rules are rules after all.

Robin M

Displaced

Some of us locals do get angry when people try it on who come here on licence. You knew the term of your licence when you agreed to come so when you talk about your investment that was what you were investing in 5 years of your life working in Guernsey.

Over the years there have been hundreds of teachers and college lecturers who have come and gone, I don't remember any of them saying they were deliberately or cleverly misled. They recognised when it was time to go.

You tried it on because you wanted to stay here after your licence ended and you lost . You thought going public would win you public sympathy when all it did was get the locals backs up.

Live with it and move on.

islander

Everybody who is granted licences,short term or long term should only enter under contract for the period involved.

No extension to contract.Train local labour to take over contracts where possible.

What has happened is that housing licences have been granted for 15 years which has now classed has becoming a resident which has put a big demand on property sales and therefore become unafordable to locals.

Dave Jones

Islander

You would be surprised at just how many people who were initially granted 15 year licences do not stay in Guernsey.

Just in the last few months for instance we have seen some high profile head teachers at our schools leave after being granted 15 year licences.

I am also aware of several in the finance sector who have also moved on.

States House

Dave Jones, wouldn't it be a good starting point to keep an eye on those who come in to the island on a one way ticket? Whether by boat or plane? Obviously they aren't here on holiday.....

Get them to fill out a simple form asking what their purpose is on the island?

Dave Jones

States House

Ours is a housing control law not an immigration law, people are free to come ang go as they wish, the only restrictions are that they cannot occupy local market homes without a housing licence, people can come here looking for work but they can only get a Right to Work document if they can prove that they are legally housed.

Under the new law, should it be passed by the States, people will have to apply for a residents /work permit from their country of origin, they will no longer be able just to turn up on the off chance of getting a job and finding somewhere to live.

It will at long last be proper population control and permits will only be given for jobs where there is a shortage of local labour and only for professions that we deem are essential to the island community.

States House

The people that this artical is aking us to "grass up" arent going to apply for work permits and will be staying in their van or hotel. They are off the grid so to speak which is why you are asking for us to tell you about them because you as a department have no idea how many are on the island!

The only way to stop them is have the work permit in place and then, fine any firm or person who is found to be employing these people on their jobs. That would stop it dead right there!

States House

Why cant a penalty fine be created for those who employ or sub contract these workers? Just like a local doing labour only sub contracting should produce an ETI gold card or the person they are working for gets stung for the tax and insurance contributions they should have been paying because even though they are self employed, labour only sub contractors should be treated as employed. So why cant a penalty be imposed on the firm or householder that hires these people for work as they themselves are adding to the loss of contributions and money in to our economy and are just as much to blame.

GM

Islander

Sorry but that's nonsense.

Only a small proportion of licences are granted for 15 years. They are invariably for senior posts only. How many doctors, dentists, head teachers, heads of school departments etc do you think we would have attracted with strictly 5-year licences? 15-year licences are for "permanent essential" staff, and rightly so.

And 15-year licences are really not having any "big demand" effect on local market property prices. As well as being few and far between, they usually carry high rateable value restrictions.

Jack

It's quite unusual to see Dave stay in a forum more than 3 days if things get iffy. I know that his department are housing persons that were on the Open Market before moving into Bas Courtil. So where is this social housing going to end. And what about the Chinese people who are hiding everywhere and not paying their dues?

Dave Jones

Jack

I respond when I am asked a question or when there is something worth responding to.

On the point you make, all applications for social housing are treated on their merits, it is perfectly possible for someone formerly residing in OM property to apply and gain social housing depending on the individual circumstances.

States House

Souldnt the people or firms employing or hiring those workers who are not registered be fined? Both are breaking the law.

They get in trouble when hiring a self employed person as labour only and not treating them as employed and paying the sub contractors social and rax co tributions.

http://www.gov.gg/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=74778&p=0

The people who are going for the cheaper non local option that isnt registered are just as bad as the unregistered workers themselves

Jack

You must be pretty thick if you cannot see the questions? I see 4 questions!

Dave Jones

Jack

I will no longer respond to you as an individual, as I am so thick.

bcb

I think your post may fall into the category "not worth responding to" on Daves list which would be the appropriate response i reckon.

States House

Ok Dave, disregard Jacks comments but do you think what I have suggested could be workable? I do!

Like I said, anyone hiring these unregistered workers is contributing to the problem as much as the workers themselves. Supply and demand. Cut the demand off!

Dave Jones

States House

This monitoring already happens, I might remind you of a very well publicised case where a take away owner was fined hundreds of thousands of pounds for employing people without the right documents and thereby allowing those employees to evade tax and social security payments.

We do also rely on information being passed to us and we warn all employers and landlords of the penalties for allowing emplyees or tenants who are flouting the Housing control laws.

States House

What about private householders who use the white van man general builder that would be staying in a hotel?

What could be done to stop these?

.

Dave Jones

That issue is being looked at by C&E

It depends why they are here, if someone has bought something from a UK company and its workman have come to the island to install it in someone’s home, then that is not breaking any of the rules because they are in and out.

If however it is someone coming to the island touting for work on a regular basis, then that is a different matter and they should be checked out by SSD inspectors to make sure they are not breaking any of our rules.

Interested

Deputy jones, I have friends in both the private sector and states who have been working for licence holders and expected to get their job when their licence runs out and done the training nd got qualifications only for their boss to get a 15 yr licence. This seems very unfair to me, what checks do housing do to make sure that there is no local suitable to do a job before extending a licence.

Dave Jones

Every check is made before these licences are extended, we do expect people to train local employees into these jobs and that does happen, there are also occasions where licences will be extended in senior posts but that will always be based on the individual circumstances of the case at the time the application is made. It maybe that the training was not successful and people have left before they could move into the post, or that the employer felt that even after training the person remained unsuitable to take over role.

We ask for evidence of this of course and we have to be satisfied that what we are told is the case before any licence extension is granted.

Johno

Dave Jones

Is it possible to say how many licences are currently active for jobs in the civil service.

It seems to me that all of the top level jobs these days go to licence holders who have NO understanding of the way this island works!

Dave Jones

Johno

I don’t have those stats to hand but I also have to say that we do have a number of local people in senior posts, although I do share your concerns when it comes to the lack of local knowledge amongst many of our civil servants who have moved to Guernsey which can effect the way they do their job.

Johno

Dave Jones

Thanks for the reply. It would be interesting to see how many there are, its certainly a question that gets asked more and more, mainly because of the increasing red tape, legislation etc we seem to come across day after day.

Dave Jones

Johno

I will ask the staff to dig out the stats when they are less busy, as we are very short staffed at present.

Although the stats will only tell you how many live licences have been issued to the public sector. not which posts they have gone to.

Johno

Dave Jones

Thanks Dave, I

OccupyArea51

I'm more concerned with the number of people on short term licenses who come over from countries which lack any sort of screening for XDR-TB, etc.

This could shortly turn into a health disaster, one infected person living in a house can infect ten others within a few weeks.

The problem is that the early symptoms can resemble a severe cold which is when the infection can spread most easily via aerosol and contact with door handles etc.

In no way is suggesting screening everyone who comes into the island for XDR-TB and other opportunistic infections racist, it is simply a good idea for health reasons.

boatman

Why not live on a boat, no licence required