Concerns raised over firm earmarked for mental health facility build

SOME local firms have stopped doing business because of problems with payment with the company that the States agreed yesterday will build the new mental health and well-being centre.

Harbour View Construction Ltd

SOME local firms have stopped doing business because of problems with payment with the company that the States agreed yesterday will build the new mental health and well-being centre.

Harbour View Construction Ltd is due to start work on the £24m. project next month and the new facility is scheduled to open in the spring or summer of 2015.

Building & Technical Services (CI) Ltd director David Mabbs claimed this week that Harbour View Construction Ltd owed his company more than £300,000 for work on Les Ozouets Campus – the new College of Further Education facilities at the former St Peter Port High School.

Others came forward yesterday to say that they too had problems getting payment from the company.

Harbour View Construction was invited to respond to the allegations but it had not done so this morning.

Comments for: "Concerns raised over firm earmarked for mental health facility build"

Bob C Wilderbeast

Who exactly owns the company? Worth finding out me thinks.

Sugared Brazil Nut

Havard Investments Limited - a Jersey registered company I am advised.

They apparently have a big money backer. But a bit like Chelsea FC, what will happen to them if he decides his pet project is becoming a bit tiresome I wonder??

Sugared Brazil Nut

Havard Investments Limited - a Jersey registered company I am advised.

They apparently have a big money backer / financial crutch. But, much like Chelsea FC, what happens if he decides his pet project is becoming tiresome and/or a bit of a non-performer I wonder?

Phil

Bob

That's easier said than done as that information is not a matter of public record.

bob

Give it to Lagan, theyve done a very respectable job so far.

Well in excess of any other states funded project in the past 15 years anyhow!

Monty

Lagans seem to be doing OK. I'm no HVC fan but their alter ego CLeQ finished the Clincal block on time on budget.

Ed

I need a new shed.

HVC were not on the shortlist.

Tonto is doing it.

John the dog

Great news another States project will be delivered on time,in budget and of the highest quality.

Dogs Breakfast

This main contractor won't use locals as the locals know they will not be paid, fact. This company is a joke.

States House

I think and hope it is pretty obvious that this is sarcasm from John the dog.

The subbies not getting paid is the thing. The states are saying that there is a new system in place starting with this job that a pot of money is being held back for sub contractors to ensure they get paid.

This is how bad they know this bunch of jokers are that they are having to withhold money from the start because they have such a poor track record.

After all the faults left at the hospital extension they did and the fact that they are no benefit to the local economy by either not paying the local sub contractors, getting in non local sub contractors or using a local based firm that employs madeirans, latvians and poles...

Lets also not forget that this firm went BANKRUPT!!!

A different name but the same monkeys.

Monty

States House, I've just researched this and it was the Crapaud mob that went bankrupt. It appears the Guernsey mob are Guernsey run, pay their taxes in Guernsey and are registered in Guernsey. I can't see any link between the 2. As long as they pay their tax in Guernsey and their Sub-Contractors do I'm happy as it means they are not taking money away from our island.

Let's hope the new payment system works ! I applaud the States for trying something new.

As for defects, ALL builders have these.

States House

Monty, you havent researched very far then!

Brian Rice was the MD of Chales le Quesne and now Harbour View...

http://www.harbourviewconstruction.co.uk/Harbour_View_Construction.html

http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/brian-rice/61/711/72b

Then look at page 16 here...

http://www.financeoffshore.com/__uploads/2020/8/pdf_20_20%20Mag%20(2010_11).pdf

Now just search Harbour View Construction on google and look at the top result!

Check this out too! http://www.clqguernsey.co.uk/

Backchat

All reasons why they are the preferred contractor for the job, fact.

States House

Also, check Harbour Views current project manager Shaun Sale...

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/shaun-sale/3a/bb0/919?_mSplash=1

http://www.thisisguernsey.com/latest/2010/10/08/st-andrews-quarry-its-all-coming-together/

Monty

Point taken, SH. Agreed - there appeared to be a link at some point, but the Jsy mob were Liquidated, and the Gsy mob are a Guernsey company yet it looks like some staff left the sinking ship.

Anyhow they pay taxes in Guernsey and in my opinion, Guernsey needs competition in the construction industry.

States House

Monty, you have to be part of the current HVC set up. Not one single other Guernsey man who didn't have a vested interest would stick up for them.

The rats didn't leave the sinking ship they just changed the name and they are very close to going under again, this new contract, (if they get it, as they still may not if found to have misled on their finances and what they owe.) is just prolonging their feeble efforts at managing a building firm.

Just because they have changed the name, so what! Still all the same management! Like Ideal contractors, now calling themselves positive engineering...

Monty

No SH, not part of the set up. Though I am anti-monopoly, and if it makes you feel better, anti-cowboy builders and anti-non payers.

Johno

Dogs Breakfast

You are absolutely right, unfortuantely we all then play right into their hands as they will import labour, on the basis that "local companies are not available"

Yet another bad choice, will they ever learn...............doubt it!

Johno

Monty

You're right ALL building firms have defects, differnce is the reputable ones put them right asap!

No amount of spin by HSSD will convince me or most others in the building industry that this was a good decision.

Monty

Johno,

There was a spate of States projects finishing over budget in years leading to the last extension by CLQ/HVC/whatever they call themselves which was actually under budget.

http://www.thisisguernsey.com/latest/2009/07/02/new-clinical-block-at-peh-well-within-budget-builders-tell-sir-fabian/

As a tax payer I'd be happy if the Mental Health Block was under budget, so the decision may not be a bad one. Let's reserve judgement.

John the dog

Ed - hope Tonto is finished before his licence expires. Might have to send for the pony tail or that mob that look into the night sky.

Johno

Monty

I think you will find that all SOG projects that ran over budget over the last few years were done by non-local companies.

When you say "CLQ/HVC whatever they call themselves" you make a good point tthey use CLQ when making presentations outlining the companies long history (in their opinion) but when previous debts etc are brought up revert to HVC who have only been trading 18 months.

There is still issues I believe with the roof at the Clinical Block amongst others.

Their reputation amongst local builders for quality is very poor (along side the payment issues) When looking at best value, have you considered that they only employ 1 apprentice.

If local contractors won't work for them, then they in turn will be reluctant to take on kids from school as work dries up.

The fact is this is actually a very small outfit comprising of a couple of Directors , accountant, project manager, site agents etc but with hardly any directly employed tradesmen.

Incidentally, I have just heard that the company they owed 300k to have apparently gone to the wall with all staff now out of a job.

Trust me there is an awful lot of bad feeling locally about this decision, which leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.

Sugared Brazil Nut

Can't disagree with a single point there Johno [though I haven't heard confirmation about BTS's apparent demise as yet]. The point about them being a small company is particularly well made - and accurate.

As for the crowing about the clinical block being on time and on budget - tosh. All window dressing for the media when they had the photo shoot of it being opened.

It's not only CLQ/HVC who come out of this tale badly either. How robust is the States' procurement system when a small company with this track record [which must have been known to the States] can even get through the pre-qualification stage, never mind being asked to undertake a £24M project?!?

They bang on about looking for best value based on qualitative issues as well as price and yet we end up with this scenario. The whole process is a sham underpinned by civil service spin.

They've clearly learnt nothing from the Dew debacle - "oh, you've given us a leaking pile of rubbish at Beau Sejour, but while you're stil here could you build us a special need school up near the airport too? Thanks."

Ed

CLQ Guernsey leaglly changed their name to HVC there has been no debt dodging in Guernsey.

The Jersey company went bust.

They want to avoid the negative of being associated with the CLQ "going bust" idea hence the name change, but, they want to claim the heritage of the jersey "family" owned company of such and such years.

This is typical marketing spin. But don't let the truth get in the way of the story.

I am not a fan of their staff or their way of working.

I'm surprised that they have let this thread continue without seeking legal advice on how to terminate it or attempted to post contary items in multiple names.

By the way Tonto was indigenous not a recent blow over cowboy, he did a very good job on the shed.

States House

Ed, they do leave a trail of unpaid Guernsey based debts, this is the whole point! Have you not been paying attention?

Like was said about how Howard Holland ruined a buisness in ireland he was not able to hold a directorship of any other UK company but he could here and look what happened. The same will happen with these spanners. Its always happening here.

Ed

SH, did you read my post or just see what you wanted?

CLQ changing its name to HVC does not allow them to dodge any debt.

If they have not paid as CLQ they still legally have to pay as HVC!!!

The fact that they have not paid has got nothing to do with them changing their name.

Now, all that out of the way;

Yes, they are really bad at paying subbies

Yes, they do not show the contruction industry in a good light

In short - WHY EMPLOY THESE JOKERS!!!

Answer if you can?

RG Falla/Rihoy must be really chuffed to see their name on the list for approved tenders with these guys.

States House

I mentioned IDEAL contractors. They owe tens of thousands to various suppliers on the island and they closed up shop liquidated and now owe nothing but the same man that owned IDEAL is back in business with positive engineering and a clean slate (other than ill fealing) and is able to tender for exactly the same work again.

Guernsey is seen as a soft touch by UK firms because we are so naive. They know if they fail, just change your name and start again. Even the suppliers will still supply you.

I guarantee you that local suppliers will once again give this firm credit. Until local suppliers stop giving credit to these firms or the sub contractors on site they will continue to opperate. The only way to stop them, if the government wont, is to stop their supply of materials. They will then have to build mud huts out of the BS they feed the states.

Do you run a business Ed? Have you ever?

Monty

Johno,

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on this. I don't know much about building, but I do know a little about government procurement methods.

Guernsey needs another big builder. Look at the Mental Hospital, 3 compliant bids were received and 2 of these were from HVC and Lagans. If HVC and Lagans were not willing to tender, what do you think the result would be ?

It's difficult to attract tendering companies/Contractors to the island.

Ed

Sorry SH, I thought you were refering to CLQ/HVC to which this thread related to.

CLQ/HVC, that is all I am posting about, please keep up dear child.

Silly me to think you were on the same thread, lol, ho ho ho.

Say again what it was about Ideal, who you beleive are related to CLQ / HVC how?

Thanks for enquiring about my income stream,

Business up and running? yes I do. I think it is still going? I'll check again ... Yep still there, doing business with HVC.. NEVER AGAIN.

FACT as Benitaz would say.

Please can we stay on topic? Or are you a HVC employee moonlighting?

States House

What are you on about!?

The reason I mentioned IDEAL is it is the same principle. They ran up tens of thousands in debt to various suppliers and just liquidated and low and behold they don't owe anything and have started again under a new name with the same management but have a clean slate.

They have no intention of settling CLQ debts. I have heard this from their own mouths.

John the dog

Ed - leave Tonto alone he's doing a fantastic job, not paying anybody, into his 4th year and creating plenty of defects a true indigenous local contractor that is not doing any harm until he disapears.

Johno

Monty

You say in your post that "It’s difficult to attract tendering companies/Contractors to the island."

Did you read the first paragraph in my post about pretty much all SOG projects that went over budget were carried out by NON local companies!

I agree that it was a shame that JWR did not tender for the Mental health Unit, but it may well be the case that they were not prepared to compete with the 2 non local companies, having said that RGf would have used predominately local contractors and kept a large part of the local industry employed AND PAID!

Even local councils in the UK are realising the value to their economy in contracts being kept local.

States House

Your dreaming if you think Fallas would have "used predominantly local contractors"!

Do you not remember all the way back to Beaucamps?

They used Lauren Lloyd for the electrical and said they knew for at least 3 months before they folded that Lauren Lloyd were in financial trouble but they sat back and watched while Lauren Lloyd continued to let local sub contractors work for them. Fallas knew full well the local contractors wouldn't get all their money but they kept their mouths shut and let it continue!

Even down to the demolition of the old school they brought in a non local contractor who bought the work as they had no work and were on the verge of going under!

Also, JWR have a large proportion of non local workers sub contracting for them !

Its not just a matter of making sure local firms get local work but make sure they have locals on site.

Ed

Please SH set up your own local company employing only local employees and tell us all the name of your new local company.

If at all you have the wherewithall to actually do more than type vitriol.

HVC in drag

States House do you work for HVC?

Why else rubbish all the good local firms?

Is this the last gasp?

Are you Brian Rice?

FACTUAL

SH.With ref to LL and RGF. LL completed the Beauchamps project during the three months that you refer to without receiving any further payment. Payments however was witheld to well over the value of 600k. Nobody knows where this money has gone...prob still in the bank of RGF or used to pay creditors off..who knows?

Main Contractors are very clever at protesting their innocence (with respect to creditors affected) when they know a sub contractor is suffering cashflow problems...my fear is that BTS are suffering the same treatment

Monty

Johno,

I stand by my comment. In recent times (last 7 or 8 years) it has been difficult to attract outsiders (on non specialist building works). 2 compliant bids on the Clinical Block, 3 on the Mental block for instance. This is not really good enough spreads to get to best value market prices.

Also Fallas don't always use local, that's well documented. They, and Rihoys for that matter, also use a lot of XXX (Gsy) Ltd brigade. I have degree of empathy in a way, finance is the first port of call for our youngsters, and the local workforce is simply not big enough to service the larger projects where 20 brickayers and 20 carpenters are required.

john

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-21628611

Forty people have lost their jobs after two Channel Islands building companies announced they had gone into liquidation.

The firms affected are Building and Technical Services CI in Guernsey and its sister company Air Conditioning Jersey.

Was this not the company earlier this week stating they had not been paid. A sad day.

Ed

SH, are you confusing me with the other ED?

Please check the avatar...

A.J.

The sooner this facility is built,the sooner the waiting patients,can get treatment, along with those responsible for the decision to award this contract.

Johno

Monty

It shouldn't be "difficult" to attract outsiders Monty they should even be allowed to go on the tender list.

Have you not read my comments ref all the cock ups done by "outsiders" Le Rondin, Beau Sejour, St Sampsons Harbour, Social Insurance building Roof, St Peter Port harbour (where the contractor tried to take us all for millions!)The former Bus Shelter and from what we hear add to that the Clinical Block.

Common denominator? Not one was a local contractor.

I agree that on large contrcats occasionally you do have to bring in carpenters, blocklayers etc, but this should be after local sources have been exhausted.

We all pay our taxes locally, pay social insurance, contribute to the community by donations to various sports, employ apprentices form school etc etc.

Just a wild guess, but I assume you are not local and maybe don't feel the same way about this island as we all do?

local tradesman

Monty is spot on. The fact is that few or no good local tradesman are out of work. whoever gets a large job like this will have no choice but to employ a large number of non locals. the issue here is wheather HVC are fit for the job and will they pay there sub contracters.

By the way nobody has mentioned MITIE guernsey who also had so much trouble getting paid for the clinicle block they pulled out of the island even though they had baucamps in the bag.

Monty

Johno,

Am I local ? How many generations does it take to become 'local' ?

Yes, there is a common denominator there, but I think you have pin pointed a convenient link there. I think though that all these Contractors are tied to large retaining bonds or something of that ilk that keeps them motivated to return to do repairs and remedials.

Local Tradesman,

Let's hope the States get this right. The project bank account they are proposing looks a step in the right direction.

You mention MITIE. I had the misfortune of interviewing them once back in 2008. They were a classic '(Gsy) Ltd' company ie registered in name in Gsy. Had one great local guy on the Electrical side, and the rest were a load of Bristolians who were no doubt spending their hard earned back on the mainland. Classic "Gsy in brackets" brigade. I think MITIE left the island as they were running down the Contracting side to concentrate on facilities management, as they left Jsy at the same time.

Local Tradesman

Agreed MITIE was an english firm but they employed as many local tradesman as they could and at least 7 local lads lost jobs due to non payment by CLQ.

Ali M

For those going on about the tendering business and why only 3 came forward etc. I am aware of quite a few within the local industry on this and other states projects who were not even invited to tender however they are on the states preferred provider list. Hence now work that most definately could have stayed in the island have been sub-contracted to the UK. These UK companies yes are cheaper but do not provide warranties, once they are gone who is going to clean up the mess, yes they pay taxes but these are refunded back when the guys leave, not like with the local companies who then spending it on mortgages, schooling, food etc. Now there is nearly 1000 people unemployed surely the states should re-introduce the permits which one is required if looking to contract for work in the Island, Jersey and Alderney have this still. As for the non payments as these are states projects they should be holding the purse strings and thus paying each contractor not paying out to one party and leaving it to them to decided who and when they pay. Today's news of the Company which has gone bankrupt is on par with Quantum Cabling and various others being owned money from the school project. You would have thought after the airport feasco that the states would have learnt.

Now going back to HVC, the £300k would be noted as a liability on the books. How come this amount was not challenged when looking at the tendering. If it was not on the books then I would seriously re-consider if they are fit and proper and what else they have hidden.......If they only changed their name from ClQ then if it am right then there would be more than £300K as liabilities!!! again why was Falla's etc not considered or approached. As i said at the start, i am aware of many who are on the preferred list who had to go through a painful exercise to get on it were not considered for tendering for quite a few of the projects. You would have thought that in these times and considering the economy that you would allocate to a local contractor and hand over the preferred and say these are who you can use. Remember these are the people to whom the states are going to be calling upon to do maintenance etc afterwards!!

Monty

Ali,

I think that States tendering procedures exclude a lot of the local builders from the tendering the larger Contracts. A performance bond or similar has to be lodged with the States before the Contract works are started on larger projects. I'm advised Lagans have got a £5.4M lodged with states (in case of default/insolvency), and I'm sure HVC will have been asked for an appropriate bond on the Mental Health. Trouble is these bonds are hard to get and our medium sized building companies would struggle to obtain one.

Sugared Brazil Nut

HVC don’t entertain bonds. They simply tell the States and other employers that their big money backer will act as Surety. Thus they avoid all the expense of setting up bonds.

And if their surety does a runner…..?

Btw – some heavy editing on my last post re specific CLQ/HVC problem jobs. If that was at your lawyers’ behest TiG then you need not worry – the 3 jobs I cited were all fact. Common knowledge throughout the local industry – they have no defence, hence the lack of any HVC response.

Bill

You can use an insurance company or a bank to secure the bond. Being on the preferred contractor list does not help, you need apply when the tenders are advertised and go through the pre qual.

Ali M

Bill this is one of the problems not all tenders are advertised and therefore I am aware of quite a few sub contractors who have not been given the opportunity to quote but now we are hearing that UK sub contractors have been presented with the work. This surely should not happen.

Johno

Ali M

Some good points made. RG Falla did tender but unfortunately were 3rd. As the cheapest Local renderer They should have been awarded the contract in my opinion. We know they are extremely unlikely to disappear unlike some others have or could potentially do.

I don't see for the life of me how we locally can ever compete with Outside tenderers. Just looking at it simply, the average house price here is now over 400k whereas large parts of the UK Ireland etc it is just over 100k. On that basis alone we could all drop prices considerably as mortgages would be minuscule in comparison.

That is without even taking into consideration that all of the money is recirculated by builders buying cars, equipment, furniture, eating out etc etc.

I personally think ALL tenders should be local but if this isn't possible why not have a proviso in the tender that they have to come in at least 20% cheaper.

Bill

All they need to do is add a scoring category for local companies. Tenders are not only awarded on cost but also quality of bid, part of the quality bid can be being local. And not just the XXX(gsy)ltd .. How obvious is the fact some XXX(gsy) companies all sign written but still have UK Licence plates on the vans .. Shouldn't they be straight up to get weighed and registered here ? Or are they not local companies.

Ali M

Monty I am not just talking about the main contractor who I am aware has to put in a bond but who they then sub contract out the rest to. Look at longue rue and I know for sure some local companies who did the school and the last hospital phase were not even invited to tender for this job yet UK contractors have got the jobs. Same goes for Maison Maritine, the new block, etc the list is long. When is the states going to wake up and ensure that where possible local should be used. After all if they don't have the work then the states will be paying dole for the people that have to be laid off. Unlike the UK contractors who will just simply go home. This is having a huge knock on effect esp as noted previously in this economny.

Monty

Ali M,

I'm 100% in agreement. Though, I still think that there would need to be caveat in the Contract in relation to Sub-Contract labour intensive areas such as the "20 bricklayers and 20 carpenters scenario", which can patently not be resolved by solely using local Sub-Contractors (especially in busy periods).

RAY

how did HVC get to price when the states want to see 3 years of banking paper work ?

Monty

Ray,

They could probably use the CLQ accounts, I would have thought. Same corporate entity, just different name.

Johno

Don't see how Monty as CLQ went bust!

Monty

Johno,

Jersey went bust but CLQ Guernsey carried on and then changed their name to HVC. So I guess that the CLQ Guernsey accounts were used which could go back 10 years or so.

Ed

CLQ Guernsey did not go bust.

How could they?

Did you read the above posts at all?

They hold back payments from subbies in contractual disputes,

therefore,

a very profitable company!!

How can it go bust?

Monty

BTS are a cross island firm (Jersey owned) according to press on both islands 92% of staff are Jsy and 8% are Gsy. Yet the Jsy BTS liquidation warrants no news but the Guernsey "registered" guys who are massively smaller in size (but important all the same) are big front page news.

The HVC witchhunt is on me thinks. Whether they deserve it or not - I don't know - thats how it seems to me.

Johno

RAY

Good point, maybe somebody from the States Tendering Dept could enlighten us!!

Sugared Brazil Nut

Not had a reply yet Johno?

Odd that......

Scarlett

Somehow, using the word 'enlighten' in the same sentence as a States Dept seems intrinsically wrong.

Johno

Sugared Brazil Nut

Not yet, hope you're not holding your breath!