'Retail strategy is wrong, parking is inadequate'

SHOPPERS have hit back at claims that parking in St Peter Port is adequate.

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Coffee shop owner Ann Dodd

SHOPPERS have hit back at claims that parking in St Peter Port is adequate.

People at North Beach on Saturday said they would like to see more parking and felt some islanders were being put off shopping in Town because of the lack of spaces.

The Guernsey Retail Strategy Group new strategy, which was released last week, said that parking was ‘adequate’ at present, but if Town continued to flourish it could be inadequate in the future.

Ann Dodd owns the Merkahbah Coffee and Crystals shop in Mansell Street. She has to park near the Model Yacht Pond, but said her customers struggled to find a space nearby.

Sue Leale, 60, said she felt put off from coming into Town because of the lack of parking. ‘If we had more parking spaces then more people would come into Town.’

Gerry Platt, 61, although a non-driver, said parking needed to be sorted now.

‘It is not adequate – I think there are certain areas that do need to be improved, in particular long-term parking,’ the Ferryspeed employee said.

Comments for: "'Retail strategy is wrong, parking is inadequate'"

concerned

Why can't we have park and ride from the top of the val des terres all year round, with a dedicated "up and down" bus running all day? You could have one the other side of town for the north. If I needed to go to town I'd definitely use it, much preferable to the in town parking hassle.

Perhaps this time of year is a bad time to compare it, but I did my xmas shopping on Friday lunchtime, it was bedlam! North beach and all the other piers jam packed, and traffic at a stand still everywhere. It really needs looking into. Trying to bully people out of their cars won't work and we need a more workable solution.

markB

What!!! a commoners car park near Fort George, whatever next.

BadDonkey

Watch "eat the rich", good film. 9 out of 10 commoners said their family's preferred it.

Joshua

People are just too lazy to walk from the car parks to town, if they have to hunt for more than five minutes or walk for more than about 8 it's deemed too far.

There is never a lack of parking spaces, just park up in salerie corner and enjoy the walk in, or get the bus, or just walk!

It takes me a half hour to walk into town from St Martins, it's no problem, in fact it puts you in a great mood, gets the endorphins going.

Alternately, get yourself a push bike or a scooter, no parking limits, top of the parking lot, slot yourself in most places, it's great.

Mike

Its very easy to accuse people of being lazy but try walking or cycling in with kids, add to that heavy shopping bags and suddenly walking and cycling becomes impractical.

I cycle to and from Vazon each day so know the benefit of being on the bike.

This issue has been kicked down the road for years now and will continue to be unless the States come up with a viable public transport strategy. Problem is how to fund it given the economy and limited resources. What do we want decent schools and hospital or easy parking?

I don't think there are any easy answers:

1. Paid parking - hits the lower and middle class who don't have parking in their company's garages. These groups are already under huge pressure from increased living costs and slow (no) wage growth.

2. Park and ride - I like the suggestion above, as long as shelter is provided to those waiting but how is this funded? If user pays you have same problem as above.

3. New car parks - Where? Reclamation? - how is this funded?

Simply saying your all lazy get on your bikes shows lack of understand of the issues and fails to provide anything like a practical option.

Joshua

You appear to have misunderstood me.

I am not saying that people are too lazy to walk into town, I am saying people are too lazy.. well let me quote myself "People are just too lazy to walk from the car parks to town"

There are plenty of parking spaces, but people are too lazy to park slightly outside of town and walk the ten minutes, and if walking ten minutes with your kids and shopping is too much of a chore, then I have no hope for those people. This is ultimately why The Old Quarter has failed, but that is another issue.

But, to say everyone should abide by this would be a gross imposition, lets put it this way, if everybody that lived within a fifteen minute walk of town walked into town, and if everyone that could take a scooter / motorbike / bicycle did so instead of the warm comfy car, then I think the car parks would be half empty and we wouldn't have an issue.

Other than people complaining they can't get to the front of the half empty car park with their kids and heavy shopping.

The real issue we have in Guernsey is combating single car occupancy and over reliance which has turned into a dependency on cars, and a culture and expectation of free and convenient parking.

Devil's Advocate

Mike, I've recently spent a day in London seeing sights and shopping - I'm pretty sure that anyone from Guernsey going shopping there will walk much further than they would if they parked at the Salerie and shopped in the Old quarter here! Kids have legs, they can walk. Heavy bags - I'm pretty sure anythign truly heavy like a Telly can be delivered by the vendor.

It's the old Guernsey mentality that St.Peters is miles away from St.Sampsons and too far to go to, when they'd do the same journey on the mainland at the drop of a hat.

Terry Langlois

There is no problem in reality, just a problem of perception. The problem is that we really do not know how good we have it.

Try living in the UK and visiting a town centre to go shopping. It can often take 15-20 minutes to find a parking space, you need to pay for that space and you have to walk 500m or more to get to the shops.

We are so used to having everything on our doorstep here, that when we have to put ourselves out in any way we perceive this as an issue. If we cannot find a space as soon as we drive into the first car park, and if we have to walk more than 300 yards, we think that there is a problem with parking.

But I bet those same people love the charm of St Peter Port and would hate for it to be turned into a smaller version of St Helier.

People just need a little perspective.

Jonathan

Agree with you Terry re the UK and paid parking, a nightmare that puts people off.

Yes shopping in St Peter Port is wonderful in comparison but a few more spaces would be beneficial.

Election Issues

Viable transport strategy?

Shoppers seem to want more parking so that they can shop in St Peter Port.

St Peter Port retailers say they need more people to buy things in the town shops and not on the internet.

The Guernsey Retail Strategy Group has a new strategy that says parking is adequate at present.

If there were more parking spaces...more people would be encouraged to park in town so they could shop in the town shops and not shop on the internet.

Of course parking in town is not adequate. Parking spaces have not been increased for years. More parking is needed urgently for short term and long term spaces.

no one

Currently I am living in the UK. Yes you have to pay to park, but very very easy to find ample parking spaces.

Terry Langlois

It depends where you live. One of the worst places I know is Kingston upon Thames, where it is not uncommon to have to queue for more than 20 minutes just to get into a multi-storey car park. Then you have to drive around trying to find an empty space before someone else gets it. Clearly, not everywhere is as bad as that.

no one

Fair point. I am currently in Southampton, and have had no problems in Southampton, Winchester and Fareham.

The worst thing in Southampton is the amount of traffic lights, now that is a joke.

binou

My previous (and last) experience of shopping in town was to get a ticket from one of our overzealous traffic wardens. Not only did that £60 fine did not go in the local economy, £100s have since gone to a well known online retailer. So I voted with my feet (pun intended).

Devil's Advocate

Did the Warden book you for your own ineptness? Thought so!

Holborn's Castle

I find it amusing that whenever people get parking tickets, it's always because the warden was 'overzealous', rather than because the driver is 'careless' or 'can't plan ahead'.

FUB

It does make me smile this re occurring issue of extra parking.

Where would they,Mrs Dodd, her customers and all those people who dont like walking from the North Beach,like these extra spaces to be made available? Multi story car parks in Trinity Square and on the Albert and Crown Piers?? Perhaps they should open up the High Street, Pollet and Arcade to traffic and parking so you dont have too far to walk.

Guernsey guy

Well said Terry !

I am stunned as to how lazy people appear to be. Firstly there is an excellent bus service taking all into the centre of town. Secondly Car Parking is excellent in town and it's free - what more do people want? Cars have to be parked away from streets that were never built for cars. We often take the pram and our grandchildren and return with our weekly shop from town. We are in our seventies but it is no hardship to walk a mile or so - good for us - good for the kids - and good for the environment. We cannot pander to the wishes of the lazy. For instance at this time of year, in the UK, you may wait for over an hour on the dual carriage way just to get into the Gateshead Metro Centre and then another half hour to find a parking space ! We are so lucky !!!

rosie

…and well said Guernsey guy. The first person on this thread to mention the bus. People are always quick to moan about a lack of parking but like to ignore the fact that there are plenty of times when the bus would work fine. I used it yesterday to get in and spent as long as I wanted without having to worry about when my car parking time was up.

Island Wide Voting

Oh,so you weren't working yesterday then?

Sam

I do hope we are not paying for her to be a prolific blogger on here like a few others who appear to comment on all and sundry!

pete

This is Guernsey not the UK. The bus service is lousy over here, so stop kidding yourselves. The fanatical environment nutters don't take long to start their preaching. That's those with the big houses, big fast cars, regular holidays all over the world, buying clothes made in third world countries. they are certainly doing their bit to reduce global warming. If people want to drive their car from A to B that is good for the economy on many fronts.

The retail strategy group vision is a lot of tosh with hidden agendas influenced by the chamber of commerce (Rosie's connection) and town centre partnership. don't be fooled people this group is not about saving town its about profiteering and destroying our historical town, especially the Trinity Square/Mill Street areas.

L

Do people want shops in town to survive .i got a £30 ticket for being 5 mins over.Gsy guy do you work sounds like you have plenty time on your hands and your doing it for pleasure.we cannot pander to the lazy oh come off it and as for spouting about the uk we are not the uk.

Guernsey guy

Hi firstly at the age of 75 yes I do still work five days a week but enjoy the weekends when like most people we do our shopping and chores as well as seeing our grand kids. It's no hardship to plan your time. Guernsey folk love their cars but in reality a tiny island like this is not suited to the car. It is small enough to get around with some ease by other methods. The UK was merely an example of how lucky we are. Rules are rules and if you are over time then unfortunately the consequence is a fine -that's life -if we begin to bend the rules then we have chaos. Al shops everywhere are having to compete with the internet Guernsey is no different and it is a problem. The convenience, choice and price is an issue for all off and on island. I bought a TV recently from john lewis free delivery , vat back , free five year guarantee. The truth is nobody on island for the same TV could match it and I needed the £150 saving to pay for my gym membership - money saved - spent on island and employing a young guy living here. No guilt from me !

Rockdodger

The sacred cow of Guernsey... bloney parking. It makes my blood boil why this island has to revolve around where people park their bloney cars!

soph

Ban all long term parking in town! (else they pay for it)

Just think, more short term areas for visitors/shoppers released?

Then town businesses may get more customers

Not me though, not a good place for elderly shoppers

PB FALLA

Multi Storey car park

Sorted

Hbc

^ wowsers! Common sense from Mr PBF for a change.

a multistorey car park is exactly what town needs. If the goverment of yesteryear planned ahead they would have put a level of parking below north beach, out of sight = out of mind.

On top wouldn't be that bad either. It would be a blot on the landscape it would be 'keeping up with the times'.

I'd fully support a multistorey car park in town. The fuel duty that is charged on fuel nowadays could pay for it.

Joe

You can still have an underground car park. Fill part of a little used basin in the harbour like Careening Hard or area close to Fish docks and you have the area on top for recreational or other usage. This debate will get batted around for ages. Look how long it took for North beach and QE 2 marina to be developed. Government depts. got to work together but do they ever..

DanH

Great, first we provide more parking, next "roads are inadequate to get into town to park in all the new spaces". More parking leads to more traffic. This is a knee-jerk reaction that ultimately wont help the situation and will just make Guernsey even more car-orientated.

Hbc

Sorry dan , don't agree with you there.

More often than not you see people trying to park but they can't so they either drive hopelessly around and around a few times looking for parking this increasing congestion or they leave town angry and frustrated and do their shopping online instead which doesn't contribute in any way to the islands economy.

The number of cars has increased exponentially in recent years, it stands to reason then that more parking spaces should be provided, and with any luck it should be provided free to help keep guernsey unique and to avoid forcing people away from the town shops - people will just shop online if paid parking is introduced.

in reply

I agree Hbc - a lot of people want more than 2 hours as well. A lot of visitors would like more than 2/3 hours - to spend a day in town (spending lots of money!) or a day trip to Herm or Sark. Not all visitors want to use our buses, they don't mind walking or cycling, but just as many want to drive and why shouldn't they! As for residents of the Island , our population has grown out of all proportion so consequently there are more vehicles - and unless there is a mass exodus of 10,000 people the traffic wont reduce and the car is here to stay. Lots of people, I believe, are really trying to leave the car at home, take a bus, walk and cycle - there are more doing this, but we still want the convenience of using our own cars and want easy parking in our town centre. I also think if there was lots more long term parking the traffic congestion in the morning and evening would reduce as not everyone would be battling into town at 7.30 in the morning. The traffic would be more staggered over the 2 hour period 7.30 - 9.30 and 4-6pm - just a thought.

DanH

Read the executive summary.

http://www.itdp.org/documents/European_Parking_U-Turn.pdf

"In the cities reviewed here, parking policy has been reoriented around alternative social goals.....Every car trip begins and ends in a parking space, so parking regulation is one of the best ways to

regulate car use. Vehicles cruising for parking often make up a significant share of total traffic. Other

reasons for changing parking policies were driven by the desire to revitalize city centers and repurpose

scarce road space for bike lanes or bike parking......The impacts of these new parking policies have been impressive: revitalized and thriving town centers; significant reductions in private car trips; reductions in air pollution; and generally improved quality of

life. "

By capping parking spaces, the number of people driving around looking for spaces reduces because people seek alternative routes in instead of getting in their car and expecting to find a space at the other end

Election Issues

Europe's parking U turn...'vehicles cruising for parking often make up a significant share of total traffic"..

...yes and my vehicle was one of those...only yesterday trying to park in St Peter Port to do some shopping. In fact it was so bad that if a space had not become available within the next 5 minutes....I had decided to drive home and rethink where I was going to buy these Christmas presents from!

DanH

EI - Did you consider "seeking alternative routes in instead of getting in their car and expecting to find a space at the other end" as per the findings of the article. The point is to force people into changing their behaviour by making it harder to use your car. The evidence in other places is that, although counter-intuitive, this approach has worked and the town centre has benefited in a number of ways as a result.

Election Issues

DanH @ 5.31

No..I didn't because I had to be at 2 other places before I decided to drive to town...on the spur of the moment to do some last minute Christmas shopping.

Sorry but I couldn't use the bus for these trips and I didn't cycle or walk as I had another appointment after the quick dash to shop in St Peter Port......I tell you what..I'll use the internet next time!

Martino

It's funny how some anti pay parking types are also pro new multi storey or underground parking types. I wonder how all their shiny new multi level parking spaces are going to be paid for? By the non commuting taxpayer?

I think DanH has got it right in post number 12. We need more commuter parking spaces like we need a hole in the head. If we go down this route we'll end up like St Helier with a whole block of multi storey carbuncles, even more gridlock in Town, more pollution, more noise, more headaches and far less attractive to holidaymakers.

Hbc

If you read my post Martino you would have noted that it was suggested that fuel duty could pay for it.

But oh no, as usual you got on your high horse and started doing laid around TIG with your pro-paid parking lobby.

Hbc

^^^. Doing laps I mean not 'laid'

Don't you just hate it when iphone predictive text ruins your insults to others DOH!

Terry Langlois

Fuel duty is just a tax like any other. At the moment it helps fill the black hole. Building an expensive multi-storey car park with public money would take away tax revenue that is currently employed elsewhere.

You cannot just pay for projects by just snaffling one existing source of tax revenue and claiming that for your project!

Election Issues

TL

Who said anything about using public money for such a venture??

Isn't there another viable option?

Yvonne Burford

One report puts underground parking construction at £41500 per space, excluding the land. Maybe that is the real reason neither public nor private money has been expended on it so far?

Terry Langlois

you did, when you suggested that fuel duty could pay for it

Terry Langlois

sorry, I meant Hbc did (i.e. the person I was responding to)

kevin

Terry,

Your last paragraph - isn't that exactly what has happened with an additional £900,000 of taxpayers cash to promote the (private) finance industry?

Election Issues

Deputy Burford @ 10.12 18.12.13

Every option needs to be explored surely? Multi-storey car parks, underground car parks?

There are many lay outs that could be considered for multi storey car parks and aesthetic design used to blend in with surroundings...cladding and trees.

Modern parking structures seem to be essential where land is at a premium and could be integrated into the town environment.

Parking policy seems to be a balance between a purely revenue raising activity, a desire to avoid deterring shoppers and visitors from returning and not damage town economy further and a need to manage transport demand.

Parking measures can help regenerate an area such as a town centre by providing more parking to attract business.

St Helier Jersey.

http://www.bre.co.uk/pdf/undergroundcarparks.pdf

Terry Langlois

kevin - you are right, that payment was an unbudgeted additional expense. The distinction (in my view) is that such an expense can be justified on the basis that it is revenue producing and is designed to increase tax revenues. Building a publicly owned car park is a pure capital cost and assumes that we have no other choice than to get to work by car, which need not be the case.

Of course, you can disagree with either of those statements (and I know that you disagree with the former), but that is a basis for treating the issues in different ways.

Yvonne Burford

Election Issues,

Your link is about pollution issues for a development of 160 apartments, a restaurant, shop, creche and 54600 sq ft of office space in Jersey, all served by 120 underground car parking spaces. The report is dated 2001.

I am not sure of the point you are trying to make, but if this development was built you can be certain that none of the spaces are available for the public.

Indeed, Guernsey minimum parking standards in the Urban Area Plan would not have allowed such a development with so few spaces.

Counter-intuitively perhaps, there is evidence that providing more parking in Town Centres, rather than regenerating them actually has the opposite effect.

What is certain, and can be seen in our sister isle, is that providing more parking generates more congestion and pollution. Instead of addressing the supply side of the equation, why not to look at the demand side of the equation and see how that can be reduced?

What is hard to understand is that the people most in favour of multi storey car parks/decks on North Beach always seem to be those against paid parking and it is not possible to square that circle.

Island Wide Voting

@10.40pm

Hi YB

Not too sure about your last para

I believe the main objection to paid parking is that a newly introduced payment will be for something that has always been 'free'

There will be a few who will decide to leave their cars at home as a matter of principle against paying ... for a few weeks ... and then they will all gradually realise that no matter how 'good'!! the bus service is, the car in the drive is so much better no matter what the cost

Your official ten minute hold up along Les Banques will return and the only difference is that you will have taken hundreds of thousands of pounds out of their pockets to hand over to an off island bus company

Your only solution is to remove hundreds of long term spaces ( much like the Harbour Master has managed to do)... so good luck with that !

Martino

.

That’s the point I was trying to make, Yvonne, in my original contribution to this thread. Large scale multi storey car parks – and underground ones – are pollution and congestion generators. We only have to look at St Helier to see this is the case. God forbid we go down that route and, if we do, there is no question that pay parking will result but without any of the benefits of introducing a limited pay parking scheme, barrier based, for our existing large Town car parks at North Beach, Salerie and the old Odeon site.

Election Issues

Deputy Burford @ 10.40 pm

With respect, the point was that Jersey has built an underground car park. Perhaps a few of you from Environment could go to see how it was done.

There is much evidence to suggest that in town centres, draconian parking policies create more congestion due to a lack of places to park.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/eric-pickles-calls-for-more-town-centre-parking-spaces

You say .. Jersey.. "is that providing more parking generates more congestion and pollution".... but Jersey has paid parking and still has congestion in rush hour traffic.

Pollution? Don't talk of pollution. Guernsey representatives have 'flown' out to China to drum up trade. China has environmental crises on an epic scale!

Why just look at reducing parking places? Why would you even consider reducing further the inadequate number of car parking places we have now? What exactly is your objective?

Islanders want more parking, more long term parking for commuters an more short term parking for shoppers to encourage them to shop in town. Do you want the town to flourish? Do you want finance workers, office workers and others to have adequate parking so they don't have to come out of their workplaces to change their clocks?

The Retail Strategy Group new strategy says parking in town is adequate. The Chamber of Commerce want paid parking to reduce congestion. I totally disagree with both statements. There is not enough parking in town, long or short term. Paid parking will not ease congestion and would be seen as discriminatory.

Election Issues

Martino @ 6.59

With ref to congestion and pollution......'we only have to look at St Helier to see that this is the case"

St Helier has paid parking.

St Helier has provided ample car parking spaces for commuters and shoppers so there is no problem finding a space.

St Helier, like any other successful town has rush hour traffic with some congestion.

What's wrong with St Helier...great cinema, great hotels, great restaurants, great shopping experience especially at Christmas!

Barrier based method for paid parking for 10 hour spaces only? Won't this add to congestion and cause more of a backlog for rush hour traffic as well as being total discrimination to commuters?

Island Wide Voting

@ 6.59am

Martino

There is a problem with Airport style barriers in that the few seconds each driver takes to operate the barrier soon builds up into a queue measured in minutes at peak times (think Albert Pier or the Bridge when someone insists on waiting ages for someone to leave their space)

Drivers attempting to enter Salerie from the Town direction would find it almost impossible to join that queue without a filter or God forbid yet more traffic lights

rosie

IWV

And there lies the root of the problem. That parking in Guernsey was ever 'free'. It has simply created a problem that as you suggest, will now be harder to solve since it has created a level of expectation that cannot be met.

Yvonne Burford

Ray,

Neither the Harbour Master nor anyone else has removed hundreds of long term spaces. When the spaces were removed from North Beach they were replaced with other new spaces at the East Arm and the Castle Emplacement. The net loss was 10 spaces. Not hundreds. Just ten.

I am told, although I have not checked for myself, that there are frequently spaces available on the East Arm - happy to be corrected if this is not the case.

Yvonne Burford

Hi EI,

Environment do not need to visit Jersey to see how underground parking is built. I was merely saying how much it costs. If one space costs £41500 to build and the cost of funds is around 5% and if you can charge it out during working hours, then to get your money back over 15 years (let alone make a profit, which a developer will want to do) you would need to charge in excess of £2 an hour to park. And this does not include the cost of the land in the first place.

Local consultations have also shown that the majority of people either think the amount of parking in SPP should ether stay the same or be reduced with only a minority seeking an increase.

BadDonkey

Yvonne , you failed to bring this before the board with votes. now you want it on the floor of the house. Sends waves to the public voters. Bad loser comes to mind. Good luck in 2016.

Election Issues

Deputy Burford @ 12.31 21/12/13

With respect, local consultants?

The Retail Strategy Group says "parking in town is 'adequate' at present"...

..Shoppers, visitors, town workers and town retailers want more parking in town to be increased...maybe to boost the economy in a recession???

Why is Environment insistent that no more parking is needed or needs to be reduced? Why? Environment should want St PP to flourish surely?

It is very obvious that more long term parking is needed for both shoppers and commuters. Commuters are shoppers as well remember.. ....they also spend their money in town shops even when they have parked in the 10 hour space.

More car parking must be good for generating revenue, especially in this recession. Our town is the hub of our community...as seen on late night shopping nights for Christmas.. with a brilliant seasonal atmosphere and a packed town centre.

Surely every effort should be made to ensure shoppers, visitors, workers and residents have enough parking spaces to suit their needs?

Island Wide Voting

@ 12.21pm

Hi YB

Sorry about the 'hundreds' (artist's licence)Quite a nice tidy job around the model yacht pond .. which should be in Saumarez Park by the way

Do you intend to release the results of the consultation document before or during the ill fated debate?

I suspect that much of the support for an anti-car policy will have come from such special groups as

The Guernsey Taxi operators group

The Guernsey Bus group

The Guernsey Cycle group

The Guernsey Equestrian group

The bring back the 1950's group

The friends of the East coast group

The friends of the West coast group

The St Andrews friends of the no coast group

..... and have the results been forensically examined to weed out multiple replies from Rosie?

Yvonne Burford

Bad Donkey,

It is nothing to do with winning or losing. Five different people on Environment and the vote could have been 5:0 or 4:1 or any other permutation.

There are recognised mechanisms such as amendments and minority reports precisely for this purpose.

Paid parking is an issue on which almost everyone has an opinion. Therefore I think it should be decided by all 47 States members, not just the 5 who happen to have landed on Environment.

As to your last comment, please do not try to manipulate me with threats of losing votes - I do what I think is right, not what I think is a vote winner. I also put paid parking in my manifesto.

Yvonne Burford

Ray,

Just imagine if Environment had removed hundreds of car parking spaces but called it 10. Would we get away with brushing it off as 'artistic licence'? :-)

The results of the consultations will be in the States Report, issued in the normal manner. There were several consultations, including one where people were picked at random to be interviewed. The results were pretty consistent across all of the consultations.

Martino

@ Election Issues

I know you'll disagree but Jersey's town would be even more vibrant if they made it a bit more cycle friendly and did away with one or two of those multi storeys of theirs.

@ IWV

I've never seen any problem with the barrier system at the airport. The same system would work brilliantly at North Beach and La Salerie.

Yvonne Burford

EI,

Local consultations, not consultants, i.e. the people of Guernsey.

:-)

Election Issues

Deputy Burford

What about the 120,000 fewer bus users on CT Plus since they took over?? An error?

Are you really seriously considering the impact of paid parking on those people who have to work in town or is it only about raising money??

It's all lovely wanting people to cycle or walk BUT...

a) the bus service is not up to scratch as a quarter of a million pounds was removed for FTP

b)not enough parking in town

c)there is a recession and people are struggling with less money.

People do not have time to cycle or walk.

You say....anyone can build a car park on private land...but land in St PP could be used for more LUCRATIVE development such as housing???

LUCRATIVE...Like building a petrol garage in the middle of a residential area on contaminated land with absolutely no thought for the people who live there...that kind of lucrative???

You want to introduce paid parking for commuters only because they are an easy target. They have no choice but to park in these car parks to get to their jobs in town. This is DISCRIMINATION!

A parking strategy should

1/ Support local economy ...making it easy for shoppers and tourists to visit and enjoy St PP

2/ Improve parking availability for commuters

3/ Meet town residents' needs for parking near their homes.

Having the correct amount of parking for commuters, shoppers, town traders, town residents and even tourists is a very important aspect in all of these peoples' lives...whether it is LUCRATIVE or not..... surely it is about enhancing the quality of people's lives...not about being LUCRATIVE.

Island Wide Voting

@ 1.37PM

Martino. OK let's count to ten and go over this slowly

At the Airport you are likely to see three,perhaps four at most,vehicles lining up to go through the entrance barrier. Each one will take about ten seconds to clear the barrier before it comes down again for the next vehicle...no great problem with three or four cars

Now imagine Salerie at 8 to 8.15-ish with thirty? cars in the line each taking the same ten seconds to clear the barrier.It will take car number thirty five minutes to reach the barrier.I don't think it's artistic licence to say that in those five minutes the queue from the North will stretch back beyond the Longstore and the queue from Town will be blocking the roundabout

Island Wide Voting

@5.59pm

EI

Do you happen to know if the the circa £50 per week paid parking debate will happen before or after the doubling of the waste collection charges debate,and will those debates coincide with the extra phone charges likely to be passed on for the new 4G licences ?

Yvonne Burford

EI,

Please don’t shout ‘lucrative’ at me. I was merely responding to a post to explain one reason perhaps why developers are not breaking down Environment’s door with proposals for car parks on prime land. I was not giving an opinion on it. But in my experience, developers will choose the most financially advantageous scheme within the scope of planning policy, and on prime land it is unlikely to be a car park which, as I have explained elsewhere, would struggle to wash its face.

I have also explained elsewhere on this site about the GT Cars decision in response to a post from yourself: http://www.thisisguernsey.com/news/2013/12/10/plans-for-petrol-station-approved/

Environment were not directed to work on a parking strategy. They were directed to to “bring forward a new comprehensive sustainable integrated Transport Strategy to include the method of funding public transport” by the Fallaize amendment in 2010. Parking forms part of this but cannot be considered in isolation.

I am certain that we will not agree on this subject, so perhaps it is better to agree to disagree.

Election Issues

IWV @ 6.56

Paid parking debate?

Waste collection charges debate?

Extra phone charges?

I cannot grasp the reasoning ...why would Environment even consider introducing paid parking for any spaces...now..at the present time in a recession.

The doubling/trebling of waste collection charges will hit many people very hard as they are struggling financially at the moment e.g.pensioners.

Extra phone charges as well? When will the madness stop?

To say I am disillusioned is an understatement!

Happy Christmas!

Election Issues

Deputy Burford @ 7.51

With respect, you are the one who wants to bring paid parking to the States for debate. It was in your manifesto but I do not live in your district. Paid parking seems to be an island wide issue.

It is up to the Environment Department to find any area that is not prime land that could be used for parking if it so chooses.

The Fallaize amendment....'integrated Transport Strategy to include the method of funding public transport'..

..with respect, we have been through this before..the States removed a quarter of a million pounds from the bus contract and as a result Island Coachways withdrew..

When this new Environment Board was elected ..why didn't they try to have some money re-allocated to the bus contract. Why leave it until now..... to bring this Strategy to the States next Spring...it should have been sorted out ages ago.

It is good that UK consultants were not used...it is illegal for local authorities in England to set charges for parking in order to provide a source of revenue.

Yvonne Burford

EI,

As mentioned, any area that is not prime land is likely to be too far out of town to be of any use.

As for the bus contract, the pressure of the FTP is such that there has been no realistic way that money could have been found up until now and the transport strategy absolutely represents the first opportunity to do that.

If, as a result of an improved bus service, say 15% of commuters decide to travel to work by bus, then that takes pressure off parking. Is that not a more logical approach than spending £25m or whatever it might be on an underground car park?

I am going to sign off this thread for now. Happy Christmas to all TIGgers and lurkers :-)

Martino

Happy Christmas to you too Yvonne.

rosie

I salute your patience Yvonne. Happy Christmas and to all TIGers….grrr!

Election Issues

Deputy Burford @ 11.18

It is the season of goodwill...but..

...any car park, underground or otherwise would be of benefit to so many people..town residents, shoppers, commuters and tourists. It would be money well spent!

The cost of improving the bus service will only be provided by parking charges introduced to the commuter for a 10 hour space. These people have to park here because their jobs are in town.

Why just pick on this one group of motorists to shoulder the additional revenue to pay for bus service improvements?

Not allowed in UK and is discriminatory.

Happy Christmas to you and yours!

Martino

Let's get this right IWV at 6:40 pm.

You have complete faith in a voting system with no previous experience apart, perhaps, from a couple of IWV 'conseiller' elections that turned out to be an utter, ridiculous farce. Plus, bear in mind, that a IWV voting system for all 40 whatever deputies would be even more of a circus and a farce and a lottery.

YET you have no faith in a tried and tested paid parking system that works perfectly well with no glitches as evidenced by the daily smooth running of the airport pp system used by thousands of motorists.

I know which one I'd rather put my faith in and it ain't IWV...

Island Wide Voting

....airport (with you so far) ... daily smooth running ( OK ) ... thousands of motorists ( WHAT!!)

You've either started your Christmas libations early or you're mixing us up with Heathrow

The only barrier to island wide voting is the limited vision of those who we,in ever decreasing numbers,turn out to elect to represent us .... with perhaps just a smidgin of self preservation thrown into the mix

Jeeps that's getting a bit heavy for this time of the year! Happy Christmas Martino :) and just a little side thought ... Has Spartacus left the building?

Martino

Well, thousands in the course of a month... Happy Christmas to you too Island Wide Voting!

And a traffic calming New Year!

bcb

Not seen much of PLP either. Do you think they could be the same person? Sparty the bearded lady perhaps?

Happy Christmas all.

PLP

Sorry bcb but you haven't unwittingly discovered Sparty's secret identity!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all TiG readers / contributors.

Hbc

Whoops disregard all the above Martino! It appears that I didn't mention fuel duty in my initial post!

I'll get me coat..... ☺️

Terry Langlois

you can take your coat off, you mentioned it in post 10

hbc

cor dam me lah,thanks Terry, a huge blonde moment by yours truly. When will admin make this forum more user friendly? I lay the blame entirely with the awkwardness of this forum. ;) (embarrassed smiley face inserted here).

Terry - RE: your comment, Taking money from the motorist to fill a black hole (not caused as a direct result of the car driver) is a slight contradiction don't you think when it could be put towards improving our transport infrastructure / road network don't you think chap?

Terry Langlois

a contradiction? not really. money is taken from me to pay for all sorts of things that are neither caused by me or will serve me any direct benefit.

my tax money (income tax and fuel duty) goes towards healthcare for diseases and conditions that I am unlikely to suffer from, it goes towards social security benefits which I do not expect to ever need, etc. etc. That is how public revenues wprk. Why should the motorist expect fuel duty to be recycled directly into assisting further private car usage? There is no reason.

My point is that we have a slight black hole at the moment. Fuel duty counts towards general tax revenue and therefore if you divert fuel duty to a new project you will need to take away revenue from something that is currently being funded, or increase the black hole. Neither of which are particularly justified when the project simply fuels the demand which causes the problem that the project is seeking to resolve.

The States should be putting money into alternative transport systems, but not because the motorist pays fuel duty, but because it is the right thing to do and because we would all benefit, even (or especially) those who stick to using their cars.

markB

good points Terry... but why should the tax payers who do not work in finance have to pay for this £900.000 hand out to promote the finance industry?

Terry Langlois

markB - it all comes down to a cost/benefit analysis

I assume that the States are satisfied that the expenditure is likely to bring benefits for all (or at least, most) of us which would not arise if the money was not spent - such as by generating more business, creating (or retaining) jobs, generating greater public revenue through income tax, sustaining the economy and creating demands for all goods and services, even those not directly related to finance.

DanH

MarkB - Because like it or not, the island is currently heavily reliant on the finance industry, from the overall tax take to the restaurants , to builders, to car sale and retail - this is largely supported by a well paid workforce employed by the finance industry.

sarnia

Why not just put another level on north beach for long term parking charge £1 a for 10 hours ,this would cover the workers in town .With a system like the airport then no traffic wardens needed,Less long term costs.

islander

I am in favour of paid parking on privately owned land

Private investors on private land not owned by the public.

The States of Guernsey Environment giving their full support for landowners in or near St Peter Port to construct purpose built car parks.

Yvonne Burford

Anyone can apply to build a car park on their private land and it will be considered in accordance with the Urban Area Plan and planning law.

It is probably the case that land in St Peter Port can be used for more lucrative development, such as houses, and land near St Peter Port is too far for people to walk. Even the East Arm does not seem wildly popular.

The lack of private development of car parking is unlikely to be due to Environment.

R. Williams

Martino, in one of his earlier posts, says St. Helier would be better if it was made more cyclist friendly. We have a cycling fanatic constable who has put in contra flow cycling , cyclists disregard all the rules, red lights, no entries, cycling down the precinct etc. and are an absolute danger to pedestrians. Several times I have had close escapes from injuries, including one cyclist going like a bat out of hell around a blind corner, shouting at me to get out of the way because he had no bell!

Most places have got their parking strategy wrong. There should be some floors of a multi-storey rented on a reserved basis for the people who live nearby but have no garage or parking space. This would remove them from the streets and cruising to find a parking space, leaving the streets clearer for both shoppers and cyclists as well as perestrians.

Having lived in town with no parking, I know how stressful it is constantly worrying about how long you have before you have to move the car. When you are ill and have to get out of your sick bed it is not conducive to aiding your recovery.