Bridge2Calais group return from week-long trip

VOLUNTEERS returned to Guernsey last night after a week-long trip to Calais delivering aid to migrants and refugees.

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Bridge2 charity founder Sara Griffith said all of her team could be proud of the legacy that they had left behind.

‘Every one of them gave 100%,’ she said.

A total of 10 vans and 15 volunteers from Guernsey delivered goods including clothing, food and blankets to the people who have gathered at the French port.

Comments for: "Bridge2Calais group return from week-long trip"

The Saint

I hope it was a successful trip. Well done to all

Herbert Roth

If you define successful as having improved the quality of life for illegal immigrants & criminals, then it probably was.

Master B

Totally agree Herbert.

Toby

I was at Dunkirk on Sunday with the team and the medics Sarah had arranged to visit. Two of the people they treated were in a serious condition and were rushed to hospital. It is highly likely that if we hadn't been there they would have died.

If saving lives isn't the definition of success then I don't know what is.

If you sincerely think that these people should just be left to die .... Well words fail me.

alexandra

Surely the French could attend to them.How many safe countries have they crossed on their quest to get to the UK?

The intentions are well intended but the Sovereign countries should be sorting this mess out.

Toby

But if they aren't getting official help should we really just stand by and do nothing ?

Herbert Roth

Did I state that I wished people to die? No I didn't.

These people are here illegally and their situation is purely of their own making. There are laws to abide by when wishing to emigrate to another country, if you choose to circumvent those rules then, as with any law, you are putting yourself in harms way.

Perhaps it is because they are confident that help will arrive from somewhere that they are willing to take a chance. Perhaps by providing that help you are only encouraging more desperate people to risk their opwn lives on a perilous journey to a perceived nirvana.

Toby

We helped save lives whilst there.

Do you think we should have gone and saved those lives, or do you think we should have stayed in Guernsey and let them die ?

alexandra

I think the cross channel commercial drivers who are threatened with violence every day and thousands of people that have had their travel disrupted on Eurostar would have another view of these illegal financial young single opportunist's that are costing Britain millions keeping them out.

Toby

There are women and children there ... Pensioners .... Families .... Even babies born on camp.

But please feel free to carry on spreading the lies that there are only young single male economic migrants there .......

alexandra

First they are illegally in France. I have spoken to lorry drivers every day that run the gauntlet of violence.They are putting the residents of Calais under pressure from violence and theft.

One of the residents has stated these people have made their area like a hell hole.Because they have been allowed to cross border after border the pressure is now costing the UK millions.

Today proper refugees who are families have flown into Glasgow.

People with good so called good intentions would reduce Guernsey to another Calais given half the chance to make themselves feel better at the expense of Guernsey peoples way of life

Herbert Roth

No-one is spreading lies or denying that people are travelling whilst pregnant or with their families. However, there remains overwhelming evidence that the majority of the latest wave of illegal immigrants into Europe are young, single males.

Which camp are you talking about? There are several around Calais, the Jungle being the biggest & most notorious. You mentioned Dunkirk - there was an article in the Times on a family that had moved to Dunkirk from the Jungle, they did so because the Jungle is full of traffickers and violence and crime is a daily occurrence. Whilst I have sympathy with their plight on a human level, choosing to put your family in that situation is a calculated risk that you take, no-one else is responsible for that.

wallygator

I am fully behind Sarah's work,

But another good thing that has come out of it for us press readers, is E Mauger has another axe to grind so he is leaving the church rates subject alone.

black jake

I sincerley hope they checked the boot of their vehicles before they returned!

Toby

I was stopped and searched by customs 3 times on the trip back. The only dangerous thing they could find in the back of my van was a week's worth of dirty laundry ......

kev

Now our heroine is back, she can crack on with welcoming the refugees to Guernsey...

Tony Webber

Encouraging illegal migrants, " 97% of whom are men with no genuine reason for being here," ( leading muslim charity who have pulled out of Calais), is hardly something to be proud of.

What would be laudable would be if the same people went to Syria to help the real refugees, the 6 million "displaced people" in government controlled areas who have fled the Islamic fundamentalists. They receive no UK aid, no Guernsey aid, yet responsible charities like medicines sans frontieres, and Open Doors, and countries like Russia supply aid .

Can't see a Bridge2Syria happening anytime soon !

Toby

Tony

could you please quote your source for your figures ?

Having actually been there, I can tell you there are plenty of women and children there, families, even babies born on camp.

We can all have an opinion on, and debate wether or not they should be there .... But they are there. Now. They need food. They need clothing. They need shelter.

If you really honestly genuinely feel that these people do not deserve help, that they should be left cold wet and hungry, without medical attention, in some cases to die, then come out and say that.

The Smiths

Toby

Webbers history tells you all that we need to know

Great work Toby

Christine

The Smiths

If you are going to slate someone, at least make sure of your facts.

alexandra

Smiths

More moronic comments that have nothing to do with the forum

Herbert Roth

It's the thin air up on the moral high ground that makes these people incapable of rational dialogue.

Toby

Herbert

Who is on the higher moral ground .... Someone who feels they have the right to decide who deserves help, or someone who decides to help regardless ?

Woodman

Webber, the former National Front candidate. Playing on the hysteria created by the nonsensical notion that a handful of refugees would destroy life in Guernsey as we know it. I think we have far more to worry about if people are foolish enough to re-elect him to the States.

blogger

Bridge2Homeless British ex-servicemen sounds far more worth while to me.

PLP

Feel free to set those charities up then.

Master B

Let's not forget the local residents of Calais that have to deal with living in fear. Value of their houses going down with loads of places for sale with no one wanting to buy them.

LeftoutGuern

Fair play for sticking it out for a week but as long as they don't come back and start preaching about how we should be helping more and taking in the Calais refugees, sorry illegal immigrants than I hope this will be yesterdays chip paper.

Chris

I hope that group can sleep at night after assisting criminals.

A group of naive people. They should reflect on their actions.

Toby

We helped feed, clothe, shelter them ..... And treat the sick and injured.

You would rather we left them cold wet and hungry, and quite possibly to die.

On reflection, yes I can sleep perfectly well at night. Can you ?

carolfromtheblock

I fear it's a nail in the coffin for your charity Sarah , next you will raising money for our poorly treated prisoners !!

Trevor Hockey

I was talking to my uncle, a very keen motor home owner. There have been reports of people leaving their van for a minute to hitch up a trailer and people jumping on board and hiding in wardrobes.

Sorry but Bridge2 doesn't get my vote on this scheme.

Toby

There were also reports that the small fire in the Jungle camp on Friday night ( caused accidentally by a candle ) was in fact an huge fire raging through the camp and was linked to the attrocities in Paris.

Personally I take "reports" with not just a pinch but an whole barrow load of salt .....

The Smiths

Toby

Great post Toby

I guess we will get more Hockeyleaks from the petrol pump gang in the coming days

Herbert Roth

And I suppose the 3 days of rioting was in fact nothing more than an over boisterous BBQ?

Toby

Can you give me dates for this rioting ? I as there for 5 days and didn't see any ......

Island Wide Voting

202,000 results in .39 seconds if you Google 'Calais riots'

Toby

I can't see anything about a 3 day riot though ...

There was trouble on the Tuesday night we were there. Some people had, probably unwisely, lit a bonfire in the road by the Jungle camp entrance.

The police response was, from their vantage point of a bridge overlooking the area, to water canon the fire and those around it, and lob in some CS gas and rubber bullets for good measure.

So yes, as you say, more like an over boisterous BBQ than a riot ......

Toby

https://www.facebook.com/toby.boucher/posts/10154294419160110

What the debris from the 'riot' looked like if you're interested.

Island Wide Voting

Interesting up to a point

I find it more interesting that the police find it necessary to have water cannon,CS gas and rubber bullets to hand

Jasperino

You people are really deluded. For fear of repeating what every person knows these people are economic refugees. Back off. For whats happened in France very recently i don't think the French people are in the mood for you. Can't imagine the local french people are lining the streets waving their handkerchiefs as the convoy rolls through their villages and towns with their life saving aid for quite possibly terrorist sleepers preparing their next mission against them

Toby

You are aware that all the Paris attackers identified so far are French citizens, already living in France and Belgium ?

And the man with the Syrian passport is believed by the French authorities to have stolen it ?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/15/world/europe/manhunt-for-paris-attackers.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

Master B

Toby

How many times have you had exposure to the problems in Calais or anywhere in France come to that?

Toby

I've just spent a week as part of the Bridge2 group. I have been in the camps at Calais and Dunkirk and seen the conditions there first hand, and spoken to some of the people 'living' ( because really, it's no way to live ) there, men, women, children, families.

I would willingly go back again tomorrow if I could ( though my family might rather I didn't ...... ) because one week is not enough time to give these people the help they need. I could be there 24/7 for months and still not do enough. I find it incredible ( no actually I sadly find it entirely credible ) that people can sit behind their computers or tablets or smartphones in their centrally heated houses, with three meals a day, flushing toilets, clean clothes every day, a hot bath every day and say we shouldn't be helping - whilst those of us prepared to do something feel that we haven't done anywhere near enough.

I don't wish to get into the politics of who these people are and why they are there, and whether they should be or not ( you might be surprised to find common ground with me on that ). But the fact is these people need help, they need it now, and I didn't feel I could just sit back and do nothing.

Was I right to do what I've done ? Who has the right and the wisdom to answer that I don't know.

All I know is that it is better to regret the things we have done than the things we never did ....

PLP

Toby

Although you are inviting comment by publicising what your team did, fact is the only people you need to justify yourself to are yourself, anyone who financially supported your endeavour and any law enforcement agencies that may ask you what you've been up to.

If you can sleep well at night with a clear conscience then I'd leave it at that. You're on a hiding to nothing trying to justify yourself on here.

Toby

I'm not trying to justify my actions .... I'm just trying to get the facts across.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but nobody is entitled to their own facts.

Mind you since when has anyone let a little thing like facts get in the way of a reasoned debate......

I know I should know better, and I've bashed my head against this sort of brick wall many times before, but I feel very uneasy reading inaccurate posts without correcting them. Which it seems would be pretty much a full time job on here .....

PLP

Fair enough....I'm certainly not inclined to criticise you.

There's far too many examples of times when politicians sat around and talked whilst people died.

The Smiths

Toby

Well done Toby

100% Respect

Jasperino

A bridge too far. Stop this nonsense. Majority of Guernsey people are not for this interference in another Country. Why? Because we do not like it when the UK or Europe try to manipulate our way of living or doing our everyday business.

Tony Webber

Toby,

If you are helping people you should check out the circumstances first.

You should know that the main charities are reluctant to help the illegal migrants in Calais.

You should know of the media reports about the muslim Braford based Human Relief Foundation ( HRF) who have said that about 97% of the migrants are actually economic migrants.

I quote Kassim of the charity who said" these people came from certain countries which are safe, where there is work and I don't know why they have come her."

He said he was surprised not find "vulnerable families" there and claims that they were fleeing worn torn and significant atrocities were not justified.

Kassim also said it was better t help people in genuine need in the Syrian region.

Toby,

who paid for you and your colleagues to go to Calais, and how much did the trip cost ?

Who is funding Bridge2Calais ?

The public are entitled to know.

Much better to go to Syria and help the people there.

Toby

Tony

I'll repeat what I've posted earlier about HRF .... I am surprised you didnt bother to check the facts yourself.

"Clarification On Calais – 6 October 2015

Following a recent news report, Human Relief Foundation (HRF) would like to clarify its position in regards to its work in Calais.

Our Path of Mercy project and volunteers have been operating on the ground in Calais since 5 September.

The need to give humanitarian support to those in the ‘jungle’ camp there was recognised early on. We have since been working hard with many others since to facilitate this much needed assistance.

In a news interview, the opinions of a member of our team who had spent less than a day in the camp were shown. Opinions were based on the first impressions of this individual.

HRF has however, been reviewing the need for work in Calais on a continuous basis, and there is a need in Calais for now, hence the continuous presence of our Path of Mercy project team.

The Path Of Mercy project is aimed to help refugees and migrants in Europe. Through donations and people’s generosity, we purchased aid that was desperately needed such as food, hygiene kits, men’s shoes and clothes and distributed them efficiently in addition to facilitating the efficient distributions of aid with other individuals and charities.

We will continue to coordinate efforts and have a presence in the camp whilst we have the capacity and will be building communal kitchens and portable shower units for camp residents.

HRF is encouraging convoys and individuals from the UK who have been giving up their time and money to travel to the camp to provide assistance and aid to continue their work."

Secondly .... From the Daily Fail article

"Ms Le Pen said: ‘Me, I saw the images of the illegal migrants who come from Germany and Hungary etc.

‘Yes, in these pictures they are 99 per cent men. For me I think that men who leave their families in their countries are not fleeing persecution. "

The reason you don't see many women in the pictures is because on the whole they aren't wandering around the camps .... They are in the family areas in their tents with the children.

As to the funding ...

The travel to and from France I believe was provided free of charge.

I personally paid for fuel for the trip out for those that wanted to take advantage of it, others paid for it themselves. Sarah offered to pay for the road tolls on the drive to Calais and back, and for the fuel on the return trip, and I think I am correct in saying that we all refused to take it. We paid for our own accommodation in a youth hostel in Calais, and for all our own meals whilst out there.

If you want to set up a charity, or better still use your own money to go to Syria yourself to help those in need there I will gladly go along with you, and I am sure all those making similar comments on here would also .....

Jasperino

Just watched channel news with Ms Griffiths talking about the crisis for the migrants living conditions in Calais, and the bridge to team building pre constructed kitchens in the camps. They would have got planning permission for this from the Calais planning officers I assume. Also roaming the streets of Paris looking for (refugees) with a not very believable sob story to tell about life back home from a refugee who did not want to be filmed. Why? You make your own conclusions on that one. Ms Griffiths Stop interfering in something that is very quickly becoming a very big millstone around yours and your charities neck and alienating people from your original worthy cause. Take the advice or don't. Up to you

Master B

Toby,

Whilst your actions maybe commendable in a natural disaster and everyone would agree here with that. This however is not a natural disaster and there are many that will not agree with what you have done. I agree with Tony that there are many charities that will not return to Calais as when they have been they have seen lots of donated items left just scattered around and they fear for their safety. They say that they will rather go to the source like Syria to distribute instead.

My other half is French and she deals with these people wether they are from Afganistan, Syria, Africa on a daily basis as its her job and profession. She is more qualified than any of us here to make comments on what should or not be done. It is not our country for starters. I mentioned to her what you did by going to Calais. The French people do not want illegal immigrants in their country. Full stop. If you have a legitimate reason to be there then that is fine. If not then leave. They see that if your helping an illegal immigrant then your assisting them to stay in France which is not your country. Would you keep illegal immigrants here? No as you would be arrested at the same time. As she says it's always easy for these people to drive with a van thinking they are helping when in fact they are not helping at all. Then they drive back to where ever they came from and leave it for us to sort it out. Last night I was watching French tv and there was an Iman in Brittany which is not far from here and he was preaching to loads of young children that listening to music is like listening to the devil. This is how radicalisation starts. On your door step in Brittany!

The point in making here is that France has the biggest Muslim community in Europe and that this should be left to the Governments to sort as the problem is huge and a few days there isn't really going to make a difference at all. Do you do it to make yourself feel better.

alexandra

Toby

I think the cross channel commercial drivers who are threatened with violence every day and thousands of people that have had their travel disrupted on Eurostar would have another view of these illegal financial young single opportunist's that are costing Britain millions keeping them out. The people of Calais are threatened with violence and theft and local residents have described it is like living in a hell hole. Surely the French could attend to them. How many safe countries have they crossed on their quest to get to the UK?

Your so called good intentions are supposed to be well intended but the Sovereign countries should be sorting this mess out. Your little group would reduce Guernsey to another hell hole like Calais given half the chance just to make yourselves feel better at the expense of the Guernsey people’s way of life.

Have you ever seen the hundreds of young men every night trying to get through the tunnel.

Today the UK received many Syrian families vetted by the authorities and legal.

Guernsey is a small little Island that should keep its nose out of Sovereign countries affairs and realise there are many problems our own Island is encountering and struggling for survival.

Why do your group not try and go to all the Middle East Countries and ask them to help some of these countries are the wealthiest in the World and have plenty of room and money to accommodate all the migrants

Toby

I don't deny that there are problems caused by this situation, and I don't condone dangerously illegal actions committed by anyone anywhere.

But again you are stressing that there are only young male financial migrants when there are thousands of women and children in the camps, many fleeing atrocities , that need are help.

Yes they possibly shouldn't be where they are and yes others possibly should be helping them .... But if they are not, in the meantime somebody has to do something !

I'll say again, there were two people in camp on Sunday who would probably be dead without our intervention.

Do you really wish we hadn't gone and they had been left to die ? Really ?

markB

Toby - Maybe the reason the French authorities aren't doing much about these people is because "if you keep putting nuts on your bird table you'll only attract more birds"

Saints

"I don't deny that there are problems caused by this situation, and I don't condone dangerously illegal actions committed by anyone anywhere."

How can you reconcile this statement when you and your group went to Calais with the express purpose of providing support to illegal immigrants (and goodness knows what else)?

Your group are well intentioned but incredibly naïve and misguided.

You have now stuck Guernsey's head above the parapet.

Toby

There is in general no incongruity between disapproving of criminality and giving criminals clothing, food, shelter and medical treatment. It is a cornerstone of the justice system throughout the world.

Perhaps you think it shouldn't be ?

Saints

"There is in general no incongruity between disapproving of criminality and giving criminals clothing, food, shelter and medical treatment. It is a cornerstone of the justice system throughout the world.

Perhaps you think it shouldn't be ?"

Eh??

You haven't answered my question at all but gone off at a completely different tangent. By your actions you are enabling illegal immigrants to continue their well documented illegal actions. Nobody put them in their current situation which is of their own making. The French Authorities must be tearing their hair out over actions by 'do gooders' like yourselves who are meddling in things of which you have no understanding. Just look at the comments on this thread. There is none so blind as those that don't want to see.

Toby

Saints

If you commit a crime in Guernsey the ultimate sanction is inprisonment.

You will be housed in a warm dry room. You will have clean clothes provided for you. Three meals a day. Full sanitary facilities. Medical treatment if they fall ill. All paid for out of your taxes wether you like it or not.

If people commit the crime of illegally travelling to the Jungle as migrants they get none of this. They have next to no sanitary facilities. You would rather we didn't provide them with a tent to sleep in in the cold and wet, whatever leftover clothes given to them, one cooked meal a day if they are lucky, all provided freely and willingly by others.

Is there crime so heinous that they don't deserve even that ?

I don't condone criminal activities by migrants/refugees any more than I condone the crimes committed on our island every day by local residents. Wanting to provide them with food clothing and shelter is perfectly compatible with that however.

Saints

Toby.

It's pointless trying to debate with someone who won't engage or maybe can't refute the points the other person makes.

Nobody has forced these illegal immigrants to be in Calais, they moved there of their own volition. If they were true migrants they would have proper ID/papers and should have registered at the first safe country they reached. They haven't.

As I've said previously, you are condoning their illegal activities by your actions.

I'm done posting on this subject. You keep on introducing strawmen. You are trying to defend the indefensible.

Toby

In what way am I not engaging in the debate ?

You are arguing that providing food clothing and shelter to someone who has committed illegal acts is condoning those acts.

In that case every time a court in Guernsey imposes a prison term on a criminal it is condoning their criminal acts, because they will be provided with food clothing and shelter.

Do you condone the criminal acts of all those currently detained in Les Nicolles ? Because you, as a taxpayer, are providing them with food clothing and shelter .... In fact to a far far greater standard than those in the camps are receiving. ( and at no expense to you )

Tony Webber

alexandra,

Yes, I agree that the first of the Syrian families have arrived and you say they have been vetted. However, I doubt very much if they have been properly vetted, and it is very difficult to do this.

I fail to see why the UK should continue to take "refugees" from Syria now, as the circumstances are changing.

Nearly a million people have returned to Syria recently as the security situation improves.

I question the wisdom of taking families here when they are needed back at home.

The logic defies me.

The Island of Bute was one of the first to take 15 families including 50 children.

The locals have not been asked if they want them, and I feel this will build up grievances as clearly they are in the UK for a better life, and they are being treated better than locals who have housing and income difficulties.

Interestingly, the USA, like the UK have not asked their citizens if they want to take "refugees" and already 28 States have refused to do so.

Since when has taking migrants from a country experiencing difficulties ever helped the country in question ?

The financial resources spent helping "refugees" settle in the British Isles could help many times more genuine people in Syria.

What we should be doing is questioning why the UK government is not directly helping the people of Syria in Syria, rather than those outside, and having this policy of encouraging Syrians to leave their own country?

The UK government needs an urgent review of its foreign policy and its aid policy.

Jasperino

Toby. Although admittedly not the most comfortable of places maybe, but in a safe country with their own relief charities and international charities. Do you not think that the established charities might be a little peeved off with an under the radar charity like bridge to interfering and maybe being counter productive of what they have already contributed. Just back off and let the expert charities with their vast experience take care of the situation. Concentrate on your previous causes.

Master B

Care services are offered by Médecins du Monde and Médecins sans Frontières and according to the UK charity Human Relief Foundation the migrant population is generally health.

Toby

They don't work weekends however .... And they aren't in the camp at Dunkirk.

Christine

Toby, did you ask any of the people why they had crossed several safe countries to get to France?

Torteval voice of reason

Of all the deserving people in the world - and the list is pretty much endless - it beggars belief that anyone would be motivated to send aid to Calais - as has been pointed out ad nauseum, these people could have stopped anywhere in Europe en route to the English Channel in perfectly safe conditions and certainly not squalid conditions - they have one simple objective - Britain - and the benefits system.

Let us just hope their knowledge of European geography doesn't enable them to figure out they might be better camping around the Bay of St Malo where the Channel Islands would only be short hop away - I imagine their interest has already been perked.

The recent atrocities in Paris will probably galvanise the French to do something about this - it is a typhoid, TB and cholera epidemic in the making and a breeding ground for extremists and anarchy with a cohort of disenchanted, bored and angry young men and presents both France and Britain with a very real security risk.

Master B

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3262220/UK-charity-considers-cutting-aid-Jungle-Calais-visiting-camp-deciding-migrants-no-real-reason-leave-home-country.html

Toby

Firstly, this .... http://www.hrf.org.uk/clarification-on-calais/

"Clarification On Calais – 6 October 2015

Following a recent news report, Human Relief Foundation (HRF) would like to clarify its position in regards to its work in Calais.

Our Path of Mercy project and volunteers have been operating on the ground in Calais since 5 September.

The need to give humanitarian support to those in the ‘jungle’ camp there was recognised early on. We have since been working hard with many others since to facilitate this much needed assistance.

In a news interview, the opinions of a member of our team who had spent less than a day in the camp were shown. Opinions were based on the first impressions of this individual.

HRF has however, been reviewing the need for work in Calais on a continuous basis, and there is a need in Calais for now, hence the continuous presence of our Path of Mercy project team.

The Path Of Mercy project is aimed to help refugees and migrants in Europe. Through donations and people’s generosity, we purchased aid that was desperately needed such as food, hygiene kits, men’s shoes and clothes and distributed them efficiently in addition to facilitating the efficient distributions of aid with other individuals and charities.

We will continue to coordinate efforts and have a presence in the camp whilst we have the capacity and will be building communal kitchens and portable shower units for camp residents.

HRF is encouraging convoys and individuals from the UK who have been giving up their time and money to travel to the camp to provide assistance and aid to continue their work."

Secondly .... From the Daily Fail article

"Ms Le Pen said: ‘Me, I saw the images of the illegal migrants who come from Germany and Hungary etc.

‘Yes, in these pictures they are 99 per cent men. For me I think that men who leave their families in their countries are not fleeing persecution. "

The reason you don't see many women in the pictures is because on the whole they aren't wandering around the camps .... They are in the family areas in their tents with the children.

LeftoutGuern

Lets look at some facts (even though some people will dismiss it)

Calais has been a migrant magnet since 2009 there are very few genuine refugees in Calais, I am guessing the camp they went too in Dunkirk was either the Teteghem refugee camp or the Grande-synthe, which are Campsites the French goverment tried closing down, it is used by smugglers(look it up I am not making this up I will post my sources at the end).

Hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing wars reach the EU's eastern and southern edges and then press on Illegally for richer and more generous countries further north and west, so with that in mind the people at Calais are illegal immigrants and not refugees seeking help.

http://www.cfr.org/migration/europes-migration-crisis/p32874?cid=ppc-Google-grant-europe_migration_crisis_backgrounder-110515&gclid=CjwKEAiAvauyBRDwuYf3qNyXmW4SJACX9-fX8miGAzeePM8cl2S4AxAbYrG1ERrq2y6wcRTrEZIqIhoCcJTw_wcB

https://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/introduction-to-calais/

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/16270a39890c4f1a9cdb8e896ba8b67d/hope-fear-waiting-french-migrant-camps-run-smugglers

http://www.thelocal.fr/20151020/refugee-camp-northern-france-living-in-squalor-calais-dunkirk

Make as you will of this, but I have stated on other posts the genuine help is required near the Syrian borders with the genuine Refugee camps and not in Calais, good heart but wrong place.

http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e486566.html

Toby

"Make as you will of this, but I have stated on other posts the genuine help is required near the Syrian borders with the genuine Refugee camps and not in Calais, good heart but wrong place."

Help is needed wherever they are.

Also anybody fleeing a warzone ( such as Syria ) is automatically classed as a refugee by the UN

LeftoutGuern

Correct as soon as they leave their own country they become refugees, the moment they leave their neighbors borders they are illegal migrants.

Alfie

Just checked "Master B" 's web site above. Perhaps as Toby has first hand experience he would like to visit the site and then comment? Also at the same time he may like to look at You Tube "How Syrian Women feel about the men that abandon them for Europe". Personally I would have the most respect for Madam G and her band if they went to Syria and stayed there to help these poor desperate mothers and their children rather than concentrate on Calais and Paris. Those guys in France had every opportunity to stop off at the first country in Europe at which they arrived to request asylum - question - why didn't they ???? England is the country of milk and honey .......... !!!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps Guernsey will shortly have that reputation thanks to Bridge2whatever !

Master B

Good point!!

thames

If these so- called "refugees" in Calais were bona fide refugees, they should have claimed asylum ( according to EU laws) at the European country of arrival.

If you were a true asylum seeker ( in fear of your life) you would not mind ending up in Hungary or Austria etc. You would not be fussy.

These people at Calais are hell- bent on getting to England ( for benefits) and do a serious diservice to all the genuine refugees ( stuck out in camps in Jordan and Turkey).

If you really want to help in a more effective way, you could start with highlighting the plight of the Yazidis or get out to the camps in Jordan and Turkey to lend a hand to these genuine refugees who desperately need our help.

Jack Toff

All well made points thames.

The UK did once take in a large influx of true refugees in the 1970's when Idi Amin had one of his regular bouts of tyrannical madness. Those folk were genuine. Not so sure about the ones now trekking northwards towards the UK.

Some may also question whether the subsequent population growth arising out of those genuine refugees has been a good thing for the UK in the long term. Given the doubts surrounding the present day would-be entrants would a repeat process based upon possibly less genuine cases be a road to go down?

alexandra

One point I would make is the most persecuted people in the Middle East even when there was peace in all these countries was the Christians.

Again the richest countries in the Middle East have done very little to help polls now in Holland, Germany and Britain show a backlash of receiving these people into their Countries.

markB

Toby - What was all this about going to Paris? and why was the story pulled of this site.

L'Eree

Another photo opportunity i would imagine !

Master B

This is also another good point... What was the reason for them being in Paris and why??? Also we live in a democratic society with freedom of speech so why was the story pulled... Would be nice to know as Toby hasn't even mentioned Paris!!!!

Toby

I didn't go to Paris so I can't really comment with any authority on what it was like there.

I didn't know there was a story about, and difficult though it might be to believe I don't hold any editorial sway over what the media do or say.

Trevor Hockey

Toby

You undoubtedly did what you thought you had to, but regrettably the vast majority of posters on here, including myself, just cannot support your actions. This is not a matter that should concern Guernsey, we are not an EU member state so it is nothing to do with us. As many say, genuine refugees would claim asylum in the first EU country they come to, not make their way to France.

Let me put it another way, if there were a group of people illegally occupying L'Ancresse Common, causing chaos, crime, filth and squalor and someone from France was supplying them with food and clothing, what would the reaction of the average local be.? I think they would be told to butt out and mind their own business.

Toby

Trevor

You, and everyone else, are entirely entitled to your opinion - and even if I could change your mind, it's not my intention or place to do so. I just feel it's good to have some actual facts in the debate rather than hearsay and half truths.

I would like to think that the island would respond to the arrival of any refugees, not that I think it's likely to happen ( especially if they happen to stumble across this website and realise that they aren't at all welcome and anyway we all think the island is going to hell in a handcart and are seemingly desperate to escape to the greener grass of the U.K. ourselves ) by looking after them properly so that they didn't have to illegally take over the common. And by the island I mean our government, not leaving it to local charities and 'do gooders' such as myself.

If it turned out that they had to rely on aid from France to survive I as an islander would feel ashamed, not antagonistic to those offering help from elsewhere.

Trevor Hockey

Toby

This subject is being done to death so I will not post any more after this on the subject.

My feeling is that if we were living in a paradise with no local poverty and all happily enjoying life then I would not be so disapproving but when we have people here who struggle to stay warm, have a roof over their heads and enough to eat then I really cannot support aid to migrants elsewhere.

Toby

Trevor

I wasn't aware you had set up a charity to house, feed, and keep needy islanders warm - and where actively campaigning for aid.

If there is anything practical I can do, you know where I am, please let me know and I'll gladly help if I can.

Jasperino

Toby

Would have thought it went down like a balon plomb

Trevor Hockey

Master B

According to the TV news, Ms Griffiths was in Paris assisting some charity treating medical conditions.

Don't know why the story was pulled, perhaps she has friends in high places.?

Tony Webber

Toby,

Thank you for your update on the Human Relief Foundation.

It only reveals a serious difference of opinion between Kassim Tokan, a senior executive of the muslim charity and some of his colleagues.

He specifically said that he did not consider that the majority of migrants in Calais were fleeing war and significant atrocities.

I would argue that Kassim views reflect those of the majority, including the majority of moderate muslims.

Toby, I think most of us feel that you have been well meaning, but misguided.

However, your offer to go to help directly inside Syria is the most positive thing you have said.

It is not easy for individuals to go and help inside Syria because there is no Syrian embassy to contact in the UK.

I will do my very best to find out.

I believe that a number of people from the Channel Islands would go to help the Syrian people.

Perhaps the Guernsey and Jersey Overseas Aid bodies could assist in this, and get together a list of people willing to go.

I do not have the start up resources to commence a specific charity for Guernsey/Jersey people to go directly to Syria to help, but would be prepared to help organise/go myself if the resources were there.

That is, if it is better to set up separate charity as opposed to helping the existing ones working directly in Syria such as Open Doors, Medicines sans frontieres ( MCF) and Save the Children.

The six million "displaced people" who have fled to Syrian government controlled areas from the ISIS Daesh axis of evil, do urgently need help.

Many of these have been abandoned by their own young men, who have left to seek an easier life in Europe. These six million include the poor, the vulnerable, the sick and the injured. These are the real ones who need our help.

When the Russians finally went to help the Syrian people they apologized for taking so long to do so.

Those of us associated with the UK and their foreign policy, which has seen support and funding to so called "moderates"in Syria, prolonging the war and misery, have much more than an apology to make to the Syrian people, and going there directly to help them with humanitarian aid will very much achieve that objective.

One million Syrians have returned to their country since the Russian intervention, the tide is turning, and there is a great need to commence the re-building of Syria, shattered by war.

The Syrian government is the last secular government in the region, an example of all religions and none working together. Let us help the Syrian people restore their country.

Master B

Tony

The Foreign Office advise against all travel to Syria. It's not safe to do so and you risk been killed or kidnapped. Have a look at their website. No one should go their but the interesting thing is that Syrians do not want foreigners in their country as they are not welcome. Also check out the

charitycommission.gov.uk they also give good advice.

thames

Toby-

Obviously your heart is in the right place, but you are seriously misguided helping illegal economic migrants in a country which you don't appear to know much about.

What you are effectively doing is encouraging more illegal economic migrants to go to said camp in Calais.

Unfortunately, many terrorists ( not even from Syria) are getting fake Syrian passports from Turkey and going to Greece to travel right into the heart of Europe from Greece posing as "refugees". Even the Paris terrorists have just boasted how easy it is to do this and provided the evidence. You may have inadvertently handed aid to a terrorist last week. That is the inconvenient truth. You should think that over.

If these people at Calais were genuine refugees they would have claimed asylum in Greece etc. ( the first EU country they arrived in). In fact, many of them are criminals and linked to smuggling rings. Genuine refugees do not have 3,000 euros to give to people smugglers to get them near to the country they want to go to ( Germany, France, England). Genuine refugees are in camps in Turkey or Jordan, some unable to speak so traumatised are they by events. They certainly don't have iphones etc.

Unfortunately, you are completely out of your depth with regards to the complex international issues surrounding this situation and by doing what you are doing, you are seriously exarcebating the problem as opposed to getting to the root of the problem.

The most serious part of this is that by your actions you are adding to the security nightmare that France is having to deal with at the moment.

Toby

I am well aware of the politics of the situation.

If you want to sit down and discuss them with me you would probably find we agree on far more than we disagree.

I however couldn't care less about the politics of the situation if human beings are suffering and need help and I can help.

I appreciate that you and many others see my actions as wrong. You have a right to your opinions.

I would far rather be wrong and help than be right and stand back and do nothing.

I would far rather do the 'wrong' thing by improving and saving lives than do the 'right' thing by leaving them to suffer and die.

Tony Webber

Master B

Many thanks for that information.

Yes, I am aware that there is a risk of getting killed or kidnapped, but the reality is that is where most aid is actually needed.

The small number of charities working there obviously use foreigners.

The UK government is also concerned about those who have gone to fight for ISIS, who generally enter via the Turkish border.

I believe those involved with legitimate charity work enter via Lebanon and directly into Syria itself. They presumably have some form of protection as it has been a long time since any charity worker in Syria has been captured by ISIS or their associates.

The Syrians used to be a very welcoming people, very much a destination for its historic sites, ancient civilisations, and of course being a major part of the Christian story.

I don't think they have changed, but then with all the foreigners coming to fight against them in aid of the ISIS Daesh axis of evil, I am not that surprised.

Certainly the charities directly involved in Syria, as opposed to those on the border regions, have been appealing for funding assistance for very many more "vulnerable displaced persons" and I very much hope that at the very least my efforts will enable Guernsey and Jersey to donate to direct Syrian humanitarian aid and re-building. A far better use of our money than taking the less genuine "refugees" here which does nothing to help the Syrian people.

I will see what happens with my enquiries, so many thanks for that guidance.

Master B

As I said Tony check out the Foreign Office advice and the Met Police advice.

http://www.met.police.uk/Syria/booklet.pdf

Master B

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/syria

This section says it all and why it's not the place to go.

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to Syria. British nationals in Syria should leave now by any practical means. The FCO is not able to provide consular services, and won’t be able to help your evacuation from the country.

This is a war zone. Not Calais

Tony Webber

Thanks Master B

Nigel.moullin@googlemail.com

Nice to see in the papers today that the police have gone into the Dunkirk camp and got rid of it so all your apparent hard work for nothing. Sorry but your cause was Bridge2Calais and people donated and gave to that cause not the other things that you and the rest did in France/Paris.....

Toby

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154312359340110&set=a.10150104598040110.316070.671560109&type=3&theater

The above is a link to a photograph taken last Sunday in a camp in Dunkirk.

Whilst one patient was being treated he suffered a heart attack. Because he was with the medical team he was able to be stabilised until the ambulance and fire service could arrive to take him to hospital.

You are of course entitled to your opinion that saving a life is "apparent hard work for nothing".

If anyone who donated in the belief that we were only helping people in Calais feels aggrieved that we also helped people in Paris and Dunkirk then I am sure they will contact the charity to express their feelings.

And by the way we were in the Grand Sarthe camp, not the Teteghem camp which is currently in the news.

LeftoutGuern

Do you mean Grand-Synthe, which if you read my earlier post is no different to the Téteghem camp.

I applaud you Toby regardless of it being right or wrong you went out there helping out on your own free time and expense, you have obviously got something out of it otherwise you would not be on here defending yourself and for that i take my hat off to you sir.

In hindsight of all the information on this forum if given the opportunity to go back, would you ?

(I guessing you would)

Toby

As I have already stated I would happily do it all again.

I am well aware that there are people in the camps not there for the purest of reasons, but you'll find that in any community. Put a large group of people together in an enclosed space and you can get trouble. If they are cold wet hungry and far from home in an unwelcoming place then it's probably inevitable. Its next to impossible to work out who is who so it's either help everyone regardless or help nobody. I choose the former option.

From reading the French media reports it appears that the main problem the authorities had with the camps was the people smuggling. When the Teteghem camp was cleared only two arrests were made, and they were suspected of involvement with such smuggling. One man I spoke to on Sunday had arrived the day before from Munich. Nobody on his journey had attempted to stop him travelling. He was being offered passage to the UK for upwards of £2,000. In my opinion the smugglers are committing a worse crime than those they smuggle. Many of the people are desperate to get to the UK for whatever reason. I'm not sure they realise that even if they get there and are allowed to stay they would remain inelligeble for benefits for 2 years or more.

Perhaps if the French authorities had started their current strategy ( house the refugees/migrants properly and move them to other parts of the country ) some trouble could have been avoided and charity aid efforts rendered unnecessary. It certainly beats what I have witnessed which was the police emptying a van load of them at the side of the road in the middle of nowhere and driving off ......

Timbo

You're obviously a caring and compassionate guy Toby, good on you for getting stuck in and helping people out. You've clearly got far more idea of what is actually going on in France and although sad to hear, it's good to have some first hand insight to balance out the commentary that is so obviously influenced by fear mongering national papers.

I,ve come to the conclusion over the past few years that nationalism in most forms is an incredibly damaging mindset and also a great cover for bigots to hide behind.

To deny a whole group of people help and then berate those that help them because of a risk that some amongst them may be looking to inflict harm or are just chancers beggars belief and again, seems like a convenient excuse for the bigots to look inward rather than out.

I do have concerns over security and the potential repercussions, but to deny so many needy people care and compassion because of a fear of terrorist infiltrators seems to me a victory for the terrorists and bigots.

I cannot house refugees, I don't have the room or the finances but I would sponsor them, spend time with them and support them if they came here.

You can't stop doing good bevause you're scared of people doing bad

LeftoutGuern

Toby are you aware of the Schengen Area, most of Europe are part of it (not United Kingdom, Ireland, Cyprus, Bulgaria or Romania) which basically means as soon as you reach Europe you can travel between each country without the need of a passport of ID, hence why nobody has been stopped getting into France.

The French have been widely criticised for taking migrants of off lorries and temp camps and dropping them off a few miles away, leaving them free to walk back, its wrong but true.

There is a general principle observed by many countries that asylum seekers who have passed through a safe third country where they could have claimed asylum can be sent back there in order to make their claim.

All of those waiting in Calais to cross the Channel fit into this category. They are in a safe country but few will have reached France without having crossed another EU border beforehand.

The EU has a specific rule about this to try to work out which country is responsible for handling an asylum claim.

which is what we see and hear on the news about them throwing away their passports, they can't send you back if they don't know where you come from.

Toby

Are there people stationed on the borders of war zones handing out leaflets detailing the correct procedures for claiming asylum ? How are refugees/migrants supposed to know he correct procedures ? Is it there fault that they are allowed to travel from country to country seemingly unhindered ?

I met plenty of people who did have their passports on them - it is in my experience and opinion something of an urban myth that so many are desperate to lose theirs - a myth that is conveniently overlooked by the scaremongerers who are keen to latch onto the "fact" that one of the Paris attackers actually had a Syrian passport on him .....

Imagine this scenario ..... You are at work one day and receive the news that there has been a fire at your home. You rush home in your expensive business suit to discover that everything you own has gone up in flames. All you now have are the clothes you are wearing and the contents of your pockets - your phone and your wallet. You no longer have your passport or your driving license or your birth certificate because they were in your house. In that situation I am sure there are few if any who would feel anything but compassion for your plight.

If however you are at work one day and discover your home has been destroyed in battle and you flee for your life then you are branded an hypocritical economic migrant ( how can you be a refugee if you are wearing an expensive suit and carrying the latest iPhone ? ) and you have clearly deliberately lost or destroyed your ID to hide from the authorities your true identity and origins .........

Master B

Migrant camp in Dunkirk is stormed by armed police amid fears it had been infiltrated by jihadis......

Toby

From a Daily Express article on the camp

"The camp in Téteghem was home to 250 people from Syria, Iraq and Iran, but now all trace has been erased after more than 200 officers swooped in on the makeshift migrant base.

The decision to dismantle the camp was made a week ago, before the atrocities in Paris where 129 people were killed in a series of attacks by Islamic State (ISIS) extremists.

Mayor Franck Dhersin said: "The decision was made a week ago. It's a relief, I've been calling for it's closure for several months."

Jean Henri, a ministerial representative, added: " Iraqis and Syrians have often fled Daesh, just as Parisians did. These are not camps of terrorists."

Mr Henri added that the migrants were told the camp will close, and stressed that they have not been sent to jail.

Instead the inhabitants were sent to a sports hall by five buses, where they will be sent to other parts of France." "

( Daesh is another name for IS or ISIS if you were wondering )

Master B

Either way as the French Prime Minister has stated the IS terrorists slip in unnoticed due to the fact that there are 28 borders with no checks, and that Europe needs to wake up and look at what is going on. The Schengen Zone is under threat and to be honest borders should be re established. Without borders there is no security. I'm all for it. We have it here and in the UK and so should the rest of Europe. The UK is the land of milk and honey and that is where they all want to end up. As so many have stated here that if they were genuine then they would not travel so far as to Calais to get to the UK but stop at the nearest country that would give them sanctuary. As my French friends say the sooner they get rid of all of them from Calais the better. If they have a legitimate reason to stay fine if not then they need to be deported back from where they came from.

Guernsey is no different. If you don't have a legitimate reason to be in Guernsey your out. It's the law.

Master B

Toby,

I read that article and you only put half the paragraph

Jean Henri also said that Charities are Interfering!

Toby

damn, I've been rumbled ! Here's the link to the full article http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/620683/Migrant-camp-Teteghem-evacuated-French-police

How naughty of me to leave bits out ....

Mind you here is the Daily Fail article I assume you got the jihadist line from

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3324199/Migrant-camp-Dunkirk-stormed-armed-police-amid-fears-infiltrated-jihadis.html

Which contains these gems that you failed to mention

"Local news outlet lepharedunkerquois reported Mr Dhersin as saying that it was a ‘rebel camp that we can tolerate no longer’.

The mayor said he had become concerned at the level of proselytizing taking place in certain parts of the camp.

Tough call: Téteghem mayor Franck Dhersin had been pushing for the camp to be closed

Tough call: Téteghem mayor Franck Dhersin had been pushing for the camp to be closed

'I saw with my own eyes an English group hand out Korans and organise sermons and prayers,’ he said.

He had called for its dismantling since September as he believed it was 'in the hands of people smugglers'.

In August, the camp was at the centre of a police operation to smash trafficking gangs ferrying migrants across the Channel.

Police commissioner Jean Henri described the clearing of the camp as a ‘humanitarian operation’.

‘It was explained to them that the camp must close, but they need to understand that we are not putting them in jail,’ he said.

The migrants were taken by five buses to be relocated to sports hall from where they will be sent to other parts of France."

How about this article pointed out higher up the page by LeftoutGuern http://bigstory.ap.org/article/16270a39890c4f1a9cdb8e896ba8b67d/hope-fear-waiting-french-migrant-camps-run-smugglers

Or this one http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11797363/French-police-powerless-to-stop-British-gangs-smuggling-migrants-from-Dunkirk.html

" French police are powerless to arrest a gang of violent British criminals who are smuggling migrants from Dunkirk into England because they do not have enough "proof", a local mayor has claimed.

Franck Dhersin, the mayor of Téteghem, said a migrant camp a few miles away from his town was run by British smugglers who reportedly charge migrants up to £1,500 to take them to the UK.

The UK-based “mafia” cruise around French coastal towns in luxury vehicles – including BMWs and Jaguars – which they use to smuggle migrants across the border, he said.

"They are English mafia in English cars," the mayor said during a visit to the camp on Tuesday, which overlooks Téteghem Lake and holds around 80 migrants from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq.

A senior police source told The Telegraph they have launched an investigation into the gang, which they say are a group of UK-based criminals who transport migrants across the border in cars with British number plates.

The source also disclosed that a man who reportedly threatened a Ukip MEP with a gun on Monday was suspected to be the ringleader of the British criminals.

The gang hides the migrants in lorries or vans and in suitcases if they are to be smuggled in cars so that they pass unnoticed through border checks at Calais and Dunkirk, according to the source.

French police have seized just 30 cars with British number plates from the camp in spite of it opening more than seven years ago, and their attempts to bug the criminals have been scuppered because they cannot find a translator, the mayor claimed.

"I don't fight against the migrants, I try to fight against the smugglers, and work with French police to try to take the English cars and put them in a garage, to keep money from the smugglers,” he said.

Police recently seized a “wonderful Jaguar” with British number plates worth 100,000 euros from the camp, he revealed.

Asked why the authorities were allowing the cars to shamelessly sneak migrants across the border, Mr Dhersin said it was too "difficult" to prevent them. "

samclarkgsy

I personally think that anyone with any sense of human decency would applaud the work of Toby and his group. All of this vile nationalist rhetoric is sad, but not unexpected. I know that if I was in the position of the migrants/refugees, I would have travelled to the west for a better future. Should where we are born define who we are?

Master B

I have just been told a story by my other half who is a French National. It is her job to help people and in her line of work Sam it's with refugees, asylum seekers etc. It's what she does in France. There was an Afgan refugee in her care whilst he was been processed. One day there was a large amount of arms, guns etc found in his room which is in the same block as where my other half works. They are for only one thing to cause harm. The French Police and Special Gendarme Units were sent to intercept this jihadist and is now in jail for a very long time. As my other half says, you try to help people and that is what you get. It's dangerous what she does and she is one that says that going to the camps like Calais makes the situation worse. Do you think that is vile.

samclarkgsy

I think you'll find the good outweigh the bad and they cannot be left to rot. Do you not think that the work of these people was morally correct? Also, you failed to answer the only question I posed. Should where we are born define who we are?

guern abroad

Where we are born shapes who we are, the brain learns what it is exposed to be it environment, diet and culture.

Does your username define where you where born?

Trevor Hockey

Master B

Very interesting to hear from someone who is so well informed.

Le Goubert

Trevor, someone who perpetuates an urban myth by way of mouth is not 'well informed'.

This incident must have been widely reported in the French media.

Please post a link to this story in this thread, or keep your silly scaremongering to yourself.

samclarkgsy

Trevor, I don't quite understand how you can be so stupid. You know nothing.

Master B

Samclarkgsy

Why you having a go at Trev. He is entitled to his opinion wether you agree or disagree.

Master B

Le Goubert,

It's not scaremongering it's a fact. Urban myth you make me laugh. There was a beheading in France this year by a IS jihadist. Were you aware of that.

Toby

Are you referring to this incident ?

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-beheaded-islamist-flag-raised-france-090945047.html

It would seem that he was, like the Paris attackers, a French national and resident, not a migrant/refugee. And not linked to IS. Unless you have more information you would care to share with us?

On the subject of beheadings there have been a couple well publicised in the UK recently. Neither seem to have been related to religious extremism of any denomination ......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11839404/Cambridgeshire-beheading-Scientist-Samantha-Ho-dies-from-multiple-cuts-to-neck-as-partner-on-murder-charge.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11693402/Palmira-Silva-beheading-Nicholas-Salvador-not-guilty-on-grounds-of-insanity.html

Master B

Yea it's not good either way.

It's been good having the debate with you Tony and good luck with your ventures.

Toby

Thank you

And regards to your partner, and good luck to her with her work. I have the greatest of respect for anybody doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances. I know first hand that these people can appear somewhat intimidating at times, but a few bad experiences should not deter us from helping the majority of good people who need it.

Bonne soirée a vous et votre conjoit ..... Et n'avez pas des cauchemars

( apologies for my probably atrocious French ! )

Le Goubert

Master B.

It's really simple.

Post a link to the story about the Afghan refugee and the arms find.

Your partner should be able to help you with the French translation.

But I have a sneaky suspicion you're telling porkies.

Master B

I'm only telling you what my partner told me. So it's not me telling porkies but not very nice of you to call my partner a liar especially with what is going on at the moment. No respect or decency. She knows better than you what is going on in her country than you do. Anyway you haven't replied to her message to you in French.

Master B

Le Goubert,

Je m'appelle Élodie , je vis en France et je suis née en Normandie et mon conjoint est de Guernesey , donc je suis très intéressée de savoir ce que les gens de Guernesey et en général des Îles Anglo-normandes pensent des derniers attentats en France , notamment Paris..Je suis travailleur Social et je suis en contact permanent avec des migrants de tous pays et lorsque je vous lis Mr Le Goubert je suis effarée et très inquiète , quelle naïveté et quel dangereux comportement vous avez. J'ai dans mon entourage des personnes qui travaillent dans la Police Française et si vous croyez que nous allons être informés de tous ce qui se passe , vous vous trompez , même pas 50% des informations sont médiatisées , le GIGN a d'autres "chats à fouettés " que de nous appeler tous les jours afin de nous tenir au courant de leurs arrestations Ah ah ah !!!!

J'espère Mr Le Goubert que je ne vous fais pas peur , mon conjoint et moi même sommes parfaitement informés de ce qui se passe en France et très très bien , car mon cousin travaille à Paris pour les Renseignements Français ... Vous comprenez?

Revenez les 2 pieds sur Terre Mr Le Goubert!!!!!!!!!!!

Master B

Do you speak French Mr Le Goubert or would you like me to translate it for you, it will be a pleasure as I speak and understand English very well!!

samclarkgsy

Have you ever heard of referencing? It helps academics to use the work of others to strengthen their arguments as well as to avoid plagiarism. At least try to provide a valid source for your claims, otherwise everything you say lacks meaning.

Master B

http://www.francesoir.fr/societe-faits-divers/en-direct-attentat-saint-quentin-fallavier-dans-lisere-un-homme-retrouve

Je ne fais pas de plagia , je dis la vérité , je suis Française et FIÈRE de l'être .....à Guernsey , le gros titre du Guernsey Press est " Tennerfest"

Nous vivons en France dans le monde REEl ...Keep your head in your little gold fish bowl !

samclarkgsy

It is not exactly the most solid source of information

Jasperino

Le goubert

Are you a serving deputy in the states of guernsey and is it your view that we should let in "refugees ? Just asking for future reference.

Le Goubert

Master B. I am confused.

The link you have posted is nothing to do with an Afghan Refugee and an arms find.

It concerns someone's head being chopped off, at least that's what I think décapite means.

I am wondering whether someone is available to give you a hand to use Google translate.

I will not comment again until a link is posted to the news story mentioned in your original post.

Jasperino

Le goubert

Are you a sitting deputy in the states of guernsey and is it your view that we should let refugees into guernsey? Just for future reference

Master B

Your not going to get a link as I have not seen it in the news. If my partner tells me that's what happened then it's good enough for me. We don't have to justify ourselves to you. Your previous comments about, falsehoods bigots witch burnings the downright nasty are way out of line and you got personal with it. How dare you. Shame on you.

Toby

To be fair you have no more or less reason to doubt Master B's word on events that cannot be referenced elsewhere than anyone else's , mine included.

Making accusations and name calling does not advance the debate and gets none of us anywhere.

Master B

Exactly Toby. You say you were at Dunkirk and helped someone who would have been dead if you had not. If you say that's what happened then I believe you. I bet that didn't make the news as many things do not. At the end of the day this site is about healthy debate and conversation also to bring in people's experiences. There is no place for slanderous or deflammatory comments about people. That's not right.

Master B

Ce sera mon dernièr échange Mr Le Goubert , je travaille tous les jours avec des migrants , je sais de quoi je parle , travaillez vous avec des migrants ? Je ne fais pas de mensonge ( aucun intérêt) je ne suis pas une fanatique et je suis ko d'être quelqu'un de méchant !!!!!je suis devant la TV et je pleure devant tous les témoignages des personnes qui ont assisté aux attentants ( Police , Pompiers, Médecins, badots, touristes ... Etc ..) De quel côté êtes vous ???????? Qui défendez-vous ??? Renseignez vous un peu mieux sur ce qui se passe dans le monde et peu-être apres pourrons nous parler!

Je vous souhaite une bonne soirée , je pense que VOUS à Guernesey vous pouvez vous endormir tranquillement , ce qui n'est plus notre cas à nous les Français !

Master B

Le Goubert

My other half wants to meet you face to face when she is next in Guernsey which is soon and tell you what happened. Then she wants you to call her a liar and everything else you said to her face. Are you up for it or are you going to hide behind the computer screen writing your rubbish or are you going to listen to someone that actually has experienced and got the knowledge to back up what she said. Actually she has said she will be happy to meet anyone on here. So what's it to be Le Goubert the ball is in your court? Yes or No?

Ivan

Have I got this right?

A group from Guernsey volunteers have returned from Calais after helping refugees?

The refugees are people fleeing from a country to avoid physical and mental abuse, even murder?

The people are fellow human beings, and are vulnerable to illness, hunger, cold etc. ?

People are criticising the actions of the volunteers? No, I can't have got that right!

Have I got this right?

40 homes in Guernsey have offered to take in refugees fleeing from a country to avoid physical, mental abuse and even murder?

A number of homes in the UK took in refugees from Guernsey during WWII to avoid physical, mental abuse and even murder?

People are criticising the action of these 40 home owners? No, I can't have got that right!

No, I must have got it all wrong. This is Guernsey. A wealthy, friendly charitable Island.

I must have got it wrong!

Le Goubert

Crikey Master B.

Don't know what to say really.

I would definitely be up for a meeting with you and your other half and accept your invitation.

My only condition being that your invitation is accompanied with a copy of the newspaper article about the Afghan Refugee and the arms find.

If we agree a date after Christmas this will give you both plenty of opportunity to find the evidence.

Trevor Hockey

Master B

Le Goubert often posts negative posts on this forum and I would advise that you ignore his rantings as he, like quite a few on this forum is just not worth the effort.

Toby is brave enough to answer criticism on this forum but it is regrettable that so few of his group give their side of the debate.

Le Goubert

Trevor thank you for the wise words.

A minority of true islanders are not gullible and often want statements backed up with something called evidence.

I seem to remember you fondling recalling your brave exploits as a Special Constable. Didn't the Police have to produce evidence when taking someone to Court?

You see not everyone believes what they are told.

Unfortunately Trevor you have demonstrated an extraordinary capacity for gullibility, by blindly believing Master B's obvious lie about an Afghan Refugee being found in possession of firearms.

If you let me work on your forecourt for a day, I wouldn't be gullible and believe everything I was told. I would ask the basic questions "when, what, who, how" etc.

Just try asking those questions, like I asked Master B, and all will soon be exposed.

Jasperino

Le goubert

You can accuse trev of anything you like but why accuse him of fondling?

Master B

Excellent a very good point. Maybe LG needs a Google Dictionary for assistance.

Master B

Trevor,

I agree with you about LG. A very sad individual who has nothing positive to add, only to be disruptive and cause problems.

Yes Toby is good to have given his point as he has been there, and I respect that and the fact that he has given many people an insight into what he has seen through his eyes. It's how he sees it as everyone will see it in a different way. Wether anyone agrees or not is up to them. It's good to have healthy debate but when it spirals out of control and individuals try to sabotage and be rude then it's gone beyond what is acceptable.

My French partner has offered to see LG next month in person but I think that LG would not have the balls to agree with that. That person should put up or shut up.

samclarkgsy

I don't quite understand how this has all ended up where it is. All we had to do was congratulate the bridge2 people on a solid humanitarian effort. The rest of the debate is essentially unnecessary. Obviously not all the refugees should turn up in Guernsey however when one of the more affluent places in the world outright rejects the possibility of housing Syrian refugees, what kind of message does that send? I'm not saying we need to house them now, I believe we need to look into the possibility of taking our fair share and not rush decisions on this. Obviously some of you are against a multicultural society however we live in the 21st century and you will just have to accept that.

Master B

Your right some but not all.

samclarkgsy

So do you accept that Guernsey should look at taking its fair share of refugees?

Le Goubert

Trevor and Master B.

For some reason my posts are not appearing in the main feed.

They are only appearing when logged into to make a comment (at 9.24 am and 12.28 pm).

Can you please log into the site and my replies will appear.

And yes Master B I am willing to meet you and your lovely lady and even Google translate, who you seem to have an excellent relationship.

Please see my reply at 12.28 pm (when logged into the site).

Master B

Please don't refer to my partner as my lovely lady as you don't know us and your not someone I would wish to associate myself with.

Master B

Le Goubert

http://www.medias-presse.info/immigration-viols-et-agressions-sexuelles-se-multiplient-en-allemagne/39266

La Police a garde secret cette information car elle a pour ordre d'étouffer certaines affaires !!!!c'est une journaliste Allemande ainsi qu'un Travailleur Social qui ont soulevés cet énorme problème due au nombre massive de migrants !!!

Instead of calling a French liar, you should get your head out of the clouds and face the truth and reality as this is happening on your door step Mr Le Goubert !!!

With a French name like yours , you should know that am not using Goggle translation,so am starting to think that whatever we said you never trust anyone !!! How sad is that you must have a pathetic life... Liberté Égalité Fraternité, Vive la République Vive la France.

Master B

Le Goubert,

You have called my partner a liar, who do you think you are. Your a nasty piece of work. Trev is right your not worth it. Trev wouldn't have you working on his forecourt, he wouldn't have any customers left. However my other half will meet you and you can explain to her why she is a liar and you will only serve to humiliate and embarrass yourself. I only passed the story on remember that. So everything derogatory you have said as far as I am concerned you have directed at her. She wants to know why you have not responded to her questions and comments to you in French. Not really sure where you get the google translate from!!!! Maybe it's because your little brain is not bi lingual. Send me your number and I will get hold of you when she is over next month and we will meet and you can apologise to her in person. It will be before Xmas. Maybe Trev and Toby would like to join us and anyone else. Gonna call your bluff mate.

Toby

I for one would love to meet up. It would be good to get an insight into the migrant crisis from the perspective of someone dealing with them in an official capacity.

Hopefully her English is better than my French !

Master B

Anytime Toby. English is very good.

Master B

Give me your contact details and we can meet up.

Toby

If you want to email me on yourshout@tobyboucher.co.uk we can hopefully arrange something.

Anybody else thinking about emailing me any of your comments, good or bad, feel free - just bear in mind though that I can't guarantee that I'll be the only person to see them, or that I'll keep them to myself .....

Master B

Le Goubert

One last thing a member of my partners family works in counter terrorism in Paris. As he would say many things go on that are not reported in news for obvious reason.

Are you going to say that is a lie also and in my imagination.

I think you have a problem.

Toby

By its very nature most of what goes on in counter terrorism never goes public. For every attack or arrest that makes the news there are many that are carried out or averted quietly behind the scenes.

I think we should be grateful it isn't plastered over the news, not suspicious .....

Master B

Your correct there.

Master B

Le Goubert

Paris RER Metro yesterday in between the 78 area and Paris Intra-Muros there was an evacuation from the train as there was alert for a chemical attack. The French Police said you have to get out quickly. I know this as Ottilie who is French is my partners best friend who sent a text saying explaining a fear for her life. This was not reported in the news. Not on BFM, TF1, France 2 TV5, FR3 etc etc. So just because it doesn't get reported means it doesn't happen.

I would like to see if you were on the train and this happened and you posted it..............

Master B

Le Goubert

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/basse-normandie/orne/nathalie-goulet-305-personnes-fichees-pour-islamisme-radical-en-normandie-854265.html

Last Thursday my partner was sat next to an Afghan migrant. He then got his phone out and showed a picture on his phone of a another Afghan with a kalashnikov.... The question they asked was why have you got this. He doesn't speak French so couldn't answer. Its a bit worrying that.

Toby

I frankly would be amazed if some of the millions fleeing the Middle East weren't extremists who have had access to weapons at some point.

That doesn't mean anywhere near the majority are though.

Just as last week's attacks in Paris don't prove that the majority of French and Belgian Muslims are terrorists.

It's sad that such a small minority can create such feelings of fear and intolerance in others.

Master B

There are over 11000 radicalised people on a list to the security services in France. That is over 1/6th of the population of Guernsey.

samclarkgsy

But if these numbers, that are questionable, are taken at face value, that means that only 0.017% of the French population are on this list. Don't believe that the small minority come close to the number of people in genuine need of help.

Master B

http://www.i24news.tv/app.php/en/mobile#content/92686

CNN... What we're told by intelligence officials is that it takes 15 to 20 people to monitor one suspect 24 hours a day. They have 11,000 people on their "fiche S" list, used to flag individuals considered a threat to national security and who they believe are radicalized. Of those, 5,000 have been elevated to an additional level of concern. Adding to that hundreds, perhaps more than 1,000, who have gone to Syria and Iraq, of whom about half have returned.

You know when the French Politicians give this information out they also say that is the number that we know let alone the numbers we don't. Why do you question it? The French people are worried as are the Muslim community.

Master B

Sam

You should be worried as its in backyard. It's not going to go away.

Toby

There was another accidental fire in the Jungle camp last night.

Ive been made aware that the emergency services refused to enter, so the injured had to be ferried to them by the volunteers working in the camp. Just as well they were there, rather than doing the right thing and staying well away ....

pyer

Toby

I would be really good if you could manage to condense your multiple posts into, say, just one an hour.

I find they are getting awfully tedious.

Toby

I make it about one every 3 hours but who's counting ?

I love it that I've been accused of not engaging and answering questions and now also of commenting too much ! You can't win can you ......

If you could get people to stop commenting and asking me things then I could get back to playing Candy Crush and leave you in peace.

AlexV

I'd just like to applaud the Bridge2Calais team for their incredibly allruistic endeavour. It takes a lot (and an incredibly decent sort of person) to give-up your own time and money to help people in need. They saw individuals who were suffering and took action to alleviate that suffering, I am truly in awe of their humanity.

I'd also like to express my surprise at some of the comments on this thread. I have only ever found Guerney residents to be welcoming, open and freindly, so you can imagine my surprise to see so many bigoted and selfish comments. I don't mean to offend anyone with that observation but 'obstinately attached to an opinion and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices' and 'lacking consideration for other people and concerned only with one's own interests' do sum-up a lot of comments Toby has calmly and cogently battled with.

AlexV

I'd just like to applaud the Bridge2Calais team for their incredibly altruistic endeavour. It takes a lot (and an incredibly decent sort of person) to give-up your own time and money to help people in need. They saw individuals who were suffering and took action to alleviate that suffering, I am truly in awe of their humanity.

I'd also like to express my surprise at some of the comments on this thread. I have only ever found Guernsey residents to be welcoming, open and friendly, so you can imagine my surprise to see so many bigoted and selfish comments. I don't mean to offend anyone with that observation but 'obstinately attached to an opinion and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices' and 'lacking consideration for other people and concerned only with one's own interests' do sum-up a lot of comments Toby has calmly and cogently battled with.

Master B

Maybe Le Goubert will ask you for evidence, proof who told you bla bla bla.

I believe you and don't question you. It's not good all this stuff going on. People will get hurt or killed. I can understand the emergency services for not entering as its dangerous place. But at least they were taken care of in the end.

Nice One

Funny how Mrs G is so keen to get her picture/name in the press at every opportunity - but when people are pointing out the flaws in her 'charity' she does not comment at all.........Toby are you feeling like you have been hung out to dry by your glorious leader yet?

Toby

I chose to comment on here of my own free will ....... and I don't see what difference who from the organisation is commenting. So no, I haven't been hung out to dry.

But you are right, Sarah is glorious isn't she ?

Nice One

Indeed she is:

glo-ri-ous

adjective

1. delightful; wonderful; completely enjoyable:

to have a glorious time at the circus.

2. conferring glory :

a glorious victory.

3. full of glory; entitled to great renown:

England is glorious in her poetry.

4. brilliantly beautiful or magnificent; splendid:

a glorious summer day.

5. Archaic. blissfully drunk.

Perhaps number 5 is relevant when she dreamt up her free holiday/ charity mission to Calais.

Two letters have been published to the Press recently about Bridge2Calais – the first she refused to comment on – the second was a childish response which pretty much was a refusal to comment.

If Sarah wants public support, then she needs to answer that same public when they have questions and concerns.

Still I look forward to the creation of the next Bridge2wherever Sarahwantsaholiday

Toby

free

frē/

adjective

not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.

"a free press"

synonyms: independent, self-governing, self-governed, self-ruling, self-determining, nonaligned, sovereign, autonomous; democratic

"a citizen of a free nation"

antonyms: dependent

not or no longer confined or imprisoned.

"the researchers set the birds free"

synonyms: on the loose, at liberty, at large; More

loose, unconfined, unbound, untied, unchained, untethered, unshackled, unfettered, unrestrained

"the killer is still free"

antonyms: captive

historical

not a slave.

able or permitted to take a specified action.

"you are free to leave"

synonyms: allowed, permitted; More

able, in a position to

"you are free to leave"

antonyms: unable

denoting an ethnic or political group actively opposing an occupying or invading force, in particular the groups that continued resisting the Germans in World War II after the fall of their countries.

not subject to or constrained by engagements or obligations.

"she spent her free time shopping"

synonyms: unoccupied, not busy, available, between appointments; More

off duty, off work, off;

on vacation, on leave;

at leisure, with time on one's hands, with time to spare

"I'm free this afternoon"

antonyms: busy, occupied, unavailable

(of a facility or piece of equipment) not occupied or in use.

"the bathroom was free"

synonyms: vacant, empty, available, unoccupied, not taken, not in use

"the bathroom's free now"

antonyms: occupied

not subject to or affected by (a specified thing, typically an undesirable one).

"membership is free of charge"

synonyms: unencumbered by, unaffected by, clear of, without, rid of; More

exempt from, not liable to, safe from, immune to, excused from;

informalsans, minus

"she was free of any pressures"

given or available without charge.

"free health care"

synonyms: without charge, free of charge, for nothing; More

complimentary, gratis;

informalfor free, on the house

"admission is free"

adverb

adverb: free

without cost or payment.

"ladies were admitted free"

synonyms: without charge, free of charge, for nothing;

Well close. Except for the payment thing. Admittedly the travel to and from St Malo was provided free of charge ( but I am positive that like me all the others on the trip would gladly have paid for it themselves ).

All the other costs we paid for ourselves. Fuel, road tolls. Our accommodation at the luxuriously extravagant auberge de jeunesse ( here if you want to check up on it http://www.auberge-jeunesse-calais.com/en/ )

hol·i·day

ˈhäləˌdā/

noun

a day of festivity or recreation when no work is done.

"December 25 is an official public holiday"

synonyms: day of observance, festival, feast day, fête, fiesta, celebration, anniversary, jubilee; More

saint's day, holy day

"Presidents' Day is a federal holiday"

characteristic of a holiday; festive.

modifier noun: holiday

"a holiday atmosphere"

British

a vacation.

"I spent my summer holidays on a farm"

synonyms: vacation, break, rest, respite, recess; More

time off, time out, leave, furlough, sabbatical, spring break;

trip, tour, journey, voyage;

informalgetaway, staycation;

formalsojourn

"Sara and Lou's ten-day holiday"

Whilst in France the team cleared piles of rotting rubbish, handed out food, clothes, shelter, blankets, built kitchens to help feed people, distributed toys to children, gave teaching supplies to schools and helped treat the sick and in some cases seriously injured. I'm going out on a limb here, but how many of those have you ever done, let alone whilst on 'holiday' ? ( apologies if I've seriously misjudged you and you do this sort of thing all the time ..... )

O'rly?

Don't worry Toby, its just the typical Guernsey miserable middle aged old men having a good old moan as usual.

Ignore them, their lives are so miserable they need to come here to have a bit of QQ.

Countonme

Why can't the camp inmates help to clear the rubbish- why should volunteers have to do it when there are so many young strong men there- even if I lived in a hovel I would try to keep the place as clean as possible- could they not help themselves with building kitchens and cleaning toilets - just wondering!

Toby

They did help - willingly and eagerly ... Over eagerly if anything.

Go outside and look at all the binsacks piled up on your street on bin night. Imagine what it would look like if nobody ever collected it. Imagine it for 6,000 people, not just the few hundred living around you .....

Worse than that, what would you do with binsacks ( on the rare occasion some came into your possesion ) given the choice of filling them with rubbish or using them to try and make your shelter water tight ?

Master B

Go for the shelter

markB

Master B - you and your partner are starting to worrying me, "Hearsay is dangerous" and that goes for you Trevor.

Master B

It's not hearsay. Look at news.

Master B

Is thishearsay?

20:09

An explosive belt, a mobile phone, and Europe's most wanted man

More from the Telegraph's David Chazan in Paris on the explosive belt:

A suicide belt has been found abandoned in a dustbin in the southern Paris suburb of Montrouge, from where the fugitive terrorist suspect Salah Abdeslam may have fled the city. The explosive in the belt was TATP, and it appeared similar to belts used by the other terrorists.

Investigators said the mobile phone of Abdeslam, Europe’s most wanted man, was detected in Châtillon, near the site where the belt was found, on the night of the Paris attacks in which 130 people died.

Channel 4 ISIS British Women.... This very real and if anyone thinks anything different then they need to wake up!

Trevor Hockey

markB

I am trying to keep quiet on this topic as it has been done to death but what Master B says is correct. Did you not see the Channel 4 ISIS women documentary last night.? We should all be fearful of radicals who think they will go to paradise if they martyr themselves. This is a greater threat than the IRA ever was.

RobB

What is more concerning are the ISIS traning camps for children. Taking kids and training them as if they were adult soldiers.

Then seeing what looked like a toddler trying to cut the head off his teddy sent a chill down my spine!

Not sure even the Nazi's were so fanatical.

Master B

Comment on the content not the individual.

Using social media - such as social networking sites Facebook and Twitter also the Guernsey Press as we are doing can be a great way to interact and communicate with others. But it's worth remembering that we're potentially sharing our thoughts and views with the whole world.

Even if you've secured your account so that only a select few can view it, there's always a risk that something you share could be reposted elsewhere.

And if what you share on social media sites is 'defamatory' (meaning that it could be damaging to someone's reputation), then you could land yourself in hot water, legally speaking…

Think before you post

Consider the following scenario and think about the possible consequences.

You're watching a TV show and a famous guest is being really obnoxious. You grab your phone and tweet some very cutting remarks about that person.

In the eyes of the law, you're allowed to express honestly-held opinions. However, if your comments go beyond cutting remarks and become serious allegations, then you could face legal repercussions - especially if what you are saying is based on unfounded claims.

The legal viewpoint

An online comment, such as a tweet, is potentially libellous in England and Wales if it damages someone's reputation "in the estimation of right-thinking members of society". It can do this by exposing them to "hatred, ridicule or contempt".

It is a civil offence (rather than a criminal one) so you won't go to prison, but you could end up with a large damages bill. These rules also apply to a 'retweet' - which is when you share or forward someone else's message on Twitter.

You may not have made the original allegation, but retweeting it could be seen as an endorsement. You could be accused of making a defamatory statement, and you could be sued.

You can also be sued even if you do not name a person in a defamatory statement. Basically, if the person you are talking about can be identified from what you have said, then you can be sued.

Scotland has a different legal system to England and Wales, but the same principles broadly apply when it comes to defamation.

Word of warning

In a court of law it would be down to you to prove that what you've said is true or to use one of the other defences to defamation, such as truth (ie what you can prove to be true) and honest opinion.

And don't think that if you delete a defamatory post then you can't be sued - you can. The length of time it is visible could affect the amount of damages you would have to pay, but just because you've deleted it doesn't mean others haven't already reposted it. Once it's out there, you can't always take it back.

Any material published in the UK - including online content - is subject to defamation, privacy and contempt laws and could even be a racism or terrorism offence.

So if you're a national newspaper editor, a bedroom blogger or just a quick-fire tweeter, you do need to think before you post. The only way to be completely safe is to avoid posting comments about people unless you know for a fact that it is true.

Not sure what the law is in Guernsey but am sure it's gonna be pretty much the same.

Ironic

Toby

You do do a pretty decent job of fighting the corner of Sarah Griffith. Are you able to enlighten everybody in regards to how much salary she draws from the Bridge2 charities?

Can you explain why these refugees are looking at spending a winter in the cold and rain when Sarah Griffith can put many of them up at Chateau Charly?

I think you are very gullible and sooner or later you will come to realise that.

Toby

If you are generously offering to sponsor some refugees I believe the going rate for the Château is about €4000 a week, which would house 16 lucky souls. Not sure if that really counts as 'many' of the 6,000 plus in the Jungle, but it would be a start.

Or if you're feeling really generous the whole place might still be for sale for about €1million .....

Either way, contact details for the owner in France are here http://www.buyfrenchchateau.com/en/ .

Bill Maguire

We've enough ah's in the States without looking for more trouble folks. Time this topic was well & truly done & dusted. Bridge2Calais group really need to think this one out quietly. Their path to everlasting glory may be on the backs of the indigenous innocents. But hell, missionaries litter history books with that lesson, all there for those who are bothered to look.