Comments for article

MLP

Maybe the reason nobody attended was because the Education Department has a track record of ignoring the consultation responses from the public, and so what's the point in bothering!

Eric

‘...In my experience children are raised up by having cleverer people alongside them,’ he said.

Errr, that's not answering the question asked...... The question wasn't "Will my child be used to enhance the capabilities of less-capable children?", it was "Will my child's education be compromised by the scale of the school?". The answer to that is a resounding "Yes, absolutely".

Education are nothing but the sock-puppets of the bean counters now, and your child's future is being sold off to fund this year's six-fold increase in civil servants earning over £200k.

And yes, this is the very worst kind of lip-service. They ignored the results of a broad-based, wholly-skewed-in-their-favour consultation before, what makes you think they'll pay the blindest bit of attention to anything anyone says at these meetings?

Interested Observer

‘It is an urban myth. In my experience children are raised up by having cleverer people alongside them,’

I'm glad he is saying this now, but this most certainly is not what he has been saying in the past!

jjlehto

This lot change their views more often than Diane Abbott makes a blunder.

Their costings for the different building options look like Diane Abbott had a big part to play in it. Claiming it would cost more to not re-build La Mare is just ridiculous.

Jasperino

Let nature take its course. Then we will see results of the past/ present unbroken island education system being ripped apart. Gonna get messy for the left wingers in our states who voted this system and the brainwashed left wing university teachers coming through the uk system who are employed to teach our kids. Boom, another Guernsey disaster for the local and finance businesses to employ level headed young people who can be re-educated to work at max for Guernsey Ltd. Let's hope they are driven by the new education system. We shall see.

Beanjar

The wealthy will still ensure their children get properly educated, including some of those forcing comprehensive education on us. Exactly as Labour and Liberal politicians in the UK regularly do - hypocrites.

Elizabeth9

That would include Deputy Meerveld, whose sons attend Beechwood and no doubt will go on to Elizabeth College.

Island Wide Voting

To be fair to Mr Meerveld he has explained that he pays for his sons' private tuition to spare them the debilitating trauma he suffered when he 'failed' the 11 plus .... a deep-seated trauma which still affects him today

Devil's Advocate

He could have sent them to normal school and simply not allowed them to sit the 11+ and go on to secondary school though couldn't he?

Alvin

I have very little up to date knowledge of the education system on Guernsey, but have the following opinions...

I am in favour of doing away with the eleven plus, ( even though I was one of the "lucky few" who "passed" it and was awarded a place at EC. I would also stop States funding of the Colleges. One of my arguments to those who say that they offer better places of learning for high achievers is that surely allowing people in who might not be so-called high-achievers but whose parents have the means to pay is counter-productive. And anyway, as I know from my days at school, children have different rates of learning and ambition at, say, 10 or 11, 14 or 15, and 17 or 18.

The same goes for the Grammar school I guess. I do not understand those who cry out to retain the Grammar school - because they see it as a better establishment than other secondary schools. Surely, if it is so good, people should be saying why can we not have four or five secondary schools all as good as the Grammar school.

I am against the creation of super-schools... I do not see what benefits they bring except to cut costs for the establishment. But whether they truly are more cost effective is debatable... surely having four or five secondary schools, all operating to the levels of the Grammar school or better, dotted around the island, would make life easier for families due to less transportation and congestion problems. Secondary school students should be able to walk to and from their schools !

Can someone point me in the direction of where the States show how many students there are on Guernsey at the various different schools, primary, secondary and higher levels, and how they, ( the States ), expect numbers to be in, say, five, ten and twenty years. Surely that is key information needed for such a decision.

It seems to me that the States, during the past couple of decades, have not been able, or have been unwilling, to solve the housing problem for first time buyers, especially young families, and are not really interested in meeting the long-term aspirations and expectations of those young families with regards to the education of their children, leading to just more and more local families drifting away from the island.

Beanjar

On the plus side, perhaps dumbing down secondary education is not such a bad idea after all. There is currently a mismatch between the qualifications and expectations of young people with the jobs available on Guernsey. Typically, many jobs require less qualified people to do relatively menial work. And when the finance sector or the States want somebody with better qualifications they will continue to import them at great expense from the UK. Or probably at higher expense when they have school age children because they will expect to be compensated for the cost of education.

PLP

Whether it will work or not depends on the environment they are being taught in. I think there are two key issues:

1. Adequate teaching resources and smaller class sizes to ensure more teacher time per pupil.

2. Adequate discipline in the class. It doesn't matter if a class is as bright as Einstein or as thick as six short planks, if the class is being disrupted then teachers can't teach.

Unless these are addressed properly it won't matter which system you use.

Devil's Advocate

Top post!

Fcuked Off

Thank you SOG for ruining my daughters chance of a top education so that she can partake in your experiment. Looking at the case studies published in the Press, she falls into the bracket of pupils who will be the first not to take the 11+. Current year 5 children who take the test next year can still pass and receive states funding for the colleges.

She wanted to take the 11+ as she works damn hard and was hoping to pass to either the Grammar or Ladies College.

Now you have created an even bigger divide as her chance has been taken away and we certainly cannot afford to fund her education privately.

Eric

But that's ok, she'll be helping other kids who have neither the independent desire nor home support to push themselves above the bare minimum.

Think not of your child as an individual, with hopes and aspirations, with a right to an education that you are paying for, but as an unpaid teachers' assistant and social worker combined. Not helping the children of politicians and senior civil servants, as they need no help in their free-range private schools, but endlessly listening to exhausted teachers explaining basic algebra repeatedly to disinterested children in their educational battery-farm.

The world will be a better place and, most importantly, the States will have found just enough 'savings' (don't say cuts, they're not cuts, at all, nope, no cuts here...) to pay for their ever-expanding wage bill. Which is nice.

This is not just an educational experiment but the natural extension of an ongoing social one, one where those who strive get to watch those that don't work out whether to go for the 55" tv or the 65".

Possibly best to advise your daughter not to bother putting the effort in. After all, the gap in living standards between those that do and those that can't be bothered has now diminished to the point where it's just got to be easier slumming it, hasn't it?

Fcuked Off

How spot on you are Eric. Can already see it now in year 4 of primary school, where the uninterested children are holding her back.

Devil's Advocate

But that has always been the case. However, when she gets to 'big school' she will be in sets with the smartest other kids. The dickheads will be in the bottom set.

jjlehto

DA

You are presuming comprehensive setting. It seems a lot of teachers don't believe in setting the same as they don't believe in selection.

Bloke A

FO

Do you consider how your general negativity may affect your daughter?

It sounds to me that she is a hard worker and a bright youngster (albeit we all like to think of our children that way I am sure). If that is the case, I am sure she will make a success of it, just as the countless decent young and not so young men and women who work in our island and have been through Les Beaucamps/La Mare/St Sampsons(/St Peter Port).

In fact because of the way our school system has been organised IN THE PAST, the vast majority of people working in Guernsey fall into that category.

Are they all failures?

P.S. Eric - you are a very bitter man.

Felix

Bloke A spot on, FA probably has an over inflated view of his daughters ability. I was listening to radio 4 and this woman was rightly upset about her son being gifted and not fitting into the system. He has taken his GCSE maths at the age of 9. That is gifted. The rest can fit into a comprehensive system which allows children to bloom when they are ready. So get over yourself FA, unless your daughter truly falls into the small minority of the weirdly clever, there ain't many of them. That said I heard of a pupil in year 9 at one of our high schools who had taken her GCSE maths and a boy taking A level computer studies in year 11 all first hand. So much for the 'bright' ones being selected at 11...

Eric

Thanks FO, I think we're in agreement!

And, Bloke A, I am indeed bitter. I am extremely well acquainted with the way the States currently functions, and I know that this entire fiasco was never about anything other than money.

Even last week's tell-the-plebs-how-it-is sessions opened with slides on how much money they're going to 'save'. How reassuring for parents... how twisted that those responsible for education have money at the front of their minds...

I am well aware of how democracy works, and that the decisions made are those of elected representatives, but at no point has anyone actually asked the population "Would you like to spend less on education, with a corresponding reduction in quality, or more, with a corresponding increase?". It's a very simple question, but one never asked.

Bloke A

No Eric, I disagree. Granted, I doubt many people have asked themselves such a negatively premised question. I am 100% sure however that many people, and I include every single member of this and the last States, will have asked themselves what impact the changes would have on educational standards. Yes, there are financial aspects to it, but for most those would have been considerations alongside (not ahead of) the education aspects.

That said, I'll bet at the last election you were more than happy to nod at manifesto promises about reducing public expenditure.

Eric

"I'll bet at the last election you were more than happy to nod at manifesto promises about reducing public expenditure."

Haha, a bet you would have lost! Having lived in countries with tax takes much closer to 50% (with corresponding quality of public services) I would be more than happy with additional tax. My bug bear is with theoretical savings that are used to shore up ever-increasing civil service costs.

And I'm not sure how the question I posed was in any way negative? It asked "spend less/ get less or spend more / get more". Not sure how you could create a more balanced question!

veekay1

‘It is an urban myth. In my experience children are raised up by having cleverer people alongside them,’

Interesting - my experience screams at me the absolute opposite.

Beanjar

Mine to. That sort of drivel is what lefty politicians come out with as they are choosing which fee paying school to send their own kids to. Diane Abbott, amongst many other hypocrites.

Elizabeth9

veekay1

A recently retired Guernsey deputy head told me that in 25 years of teaching in comprehensives in the UK, prior to coming to Guernsey, had never seen achievment of lower attaining pupils being raised by being alongside higher achievers. In fact quite the opposite, the highly academic were held back.

As Interested Observer noted, this was previousely Deputy Le Pelley's view also - until he was taken over by the Grange Civil Servants.

ricklowe08

Elizabeth9

My sister, who spent the majority of her working life teaching in U.K. Comprehensives, would completely agree with you.

Paul's 'about face' is astonishing. I understand that he wants to do the best that he and his committee can, and possibly their view is that they will do less damage than the 'purist' that have agitated for comprehensive education although it's hard to see that by the current proposals.

Essentially we now have an ESC Committee progressing an ideal that 3/5 of them opposed. I find that peculiar to say the least.

I suggested at the time that resignation would be their best option. I still believe that to be correct. I think that given their majority view an effective scrutiny of those who desired a comprehensive system would have been preferable and, ultimately, more productive.

I can't think of any other examples worldwide where a government or opposition (or in our case committee) would lose a vote and immediately capitulate and attempt to support and implement their oppositions plans. It's weird.

That said, equally weird, is my continued support of ESC which I believe is underpinned by my loathing of those(21) who created this mess in the first place!

Bloke A

Loathing? These are democratically elected individuals. You may disagree with the decision - as strongly as you like - but as someone who has stood for election surely you respect democratic principles.

Loathing your would-be fellow deputies doesn't really cut it.

Interested Observer

One of the many reasons he wasn't elected (Twice)

ricklowe08

Bloke A

You're quite right and I accept your point.

I should have said 'by my loathing of the politics of the 21' who created the mess.

In fact there are several within the 21 that I normally regard.

Personalising a political view doesn't add value and I thank you for reminding me.

Tim R Langlois

Rick, I am amazed to find myself agreeing with your take on the ESC committee, they are very weak all round and should have stood down. That is what the vote of no confidence was flagging up so strongly. At the GS presentation if only they had had a teacher or two with real in-depth of knowledge of education at a management level, like we had on the previous Ed. Board, they might have been able to answer all those Grammar-centric questions coming from the likes of Kieran James. Option 1 is the right path, so we must set aside the selfishness of a number of GS teachers and make that option work for all Guernsey school children in the States sector.

ricklowe08

Tim

I haven't at any stage suggested that they are weak all round. In fact they still have my support. I fully understand their reasoning for continuing with the task set for them by the States. That said I don't believe that was their best option as I have previously stated.

I disagreed strongly with the MoNC as I think that was about political manoeuvring.

It is unlikely that you and I will find agreement on any Education issues or for that matter any broader political issues either.

I'm sure that we both recognise that reality and are entirely comfortable with it.

Elizabeth9

Tim

What an appalling post. You criticise Kieran on the premise that he is Grammar-centric - he was trying to get answers about POST 16 education which IS NOT THE GRAMMAR SCHOOL. You then go on to say that the Commitee for Ed etc should have a teacher with education management experience on the board so that they could have answered. Does that not make you think, hang on if the committee can't answer then they don't really understand what they are doing? However Kieran does understand - he is The Director of Sixth Form NOT THE GRAMMAR SCHOOL. He is a teacher and education manager so understands very well the problems which will arise. He is trying to make those who are putting the plans forward aware of them. Unfortunately the Board and The Grange don't even know which questions to ask as they have either never worked in a school or a Sixth Form or have been away from the coal face for too long and are relying on the latest googled piece of expert opinion.

As for calling some staff selfish, there are very real reasons for the staff as a majority to believe that post 16 education and pastoral care will be damaged, it is concern not selfishness that drives them.

I would suggest that it is those that have no educational experience, especially at post 16 (ring any bells Tim) that are the selfish ones.

And before you start, this has nothing to do with retaining the Grammar School - staff have accepted that and moved on. It is about how to keep standards up and there has been precious little evidence as to how this will be achieved - other than of the wing and a prayer type.

SarnianSpring

Tim Langlois

I suppose you would prefer to have your brother on the ESC?

That way you could foist your Victorian, left wing idealist crap on our children?

When, (not if), this social experiment with our children's future goes horribly wrong, you and the main protagonist in the destruction of our education system (Sherbourne), will probably be six feet under. Which will be a great shame because I would rather spit in your face than on your grave!

BTW

I laughed hard and loud when you were caught out live on air on the Sunday phone in during the VONC saga. The "I thought this was anonymous" quote truly showed you up for the hand wringing lefty you are.

Please crawl back under your stone, the last thing this Island needs is your brother anywhere near ESC. Your treatment of the United Opposition group and it's members was truly awful and showed how low you left wing prats will stoop in order to get what you want. I hope they release the threatening emails you sent to them to the public. You would never show your face in public again.

And before you start bleating about me hiding behind an anonymous name, send me an email to sarnianspring@yahoo.com, I will gladly meet you and discuss face to face.

Island Wide Voting

I want to read those e-mails

I want to be at that meeting

peabody

Sarnian Spring- good for you!

Elizabeth9

Tim R Langlois

Your post of July 20th 1-05pm attacking Kieran James for his 'Grammar-centric position'.

Could you please reply to the responces of myself, Ricklowe08, Figtree, SarnianSpring, IWV and Peabody?

peabody

Elizabeth9- to be fair to Tim, the reason he may not have replied could be because he represents not only his work place being a manager, the Grammar PTA, Mare de Carteret School Committee & a Douzenier on Peters Douzaine (I believe) I am sure he only represents his own personal views & does not in any shape or form represent the views of the organisations he represents and and may feel by saying anymore, would put those organisations into disrepute.

Island Wide Voting

..... and because Tim has declared several times that he will not converse with those who wish to remain anonymous

That's not a bad idea if you want to put your point across without having to defend it ... but he took the opposite view on a Sunday phone in last year

SarnianSpring

Island Wide Voting

He certainly did, he was not happy when someone told the presenter who was actually on the phone.

I doubt he will meet me but if he does you are welcome to attend.

Be warned though, he is a bit of a bully. Which will be very apparent if and when those emails get released.

Dogwatch

MLP & Eric, how right you are! Just look at the mess our primary schools are in thanks to the politicians following the advice of the faceless bean counters! I don't think bean counters is perhaps the correct term to use as that implies that someone is actually watching expenditure and costs, which we all know isn't true.

What the secondary schools need is to reintroduce very firm discipline, especially for disruptive pupils who ruin everyones' chances of getting a good education (except when they do everyone a favour and regularly bunk off)!

Devil's Advocate

Discipline is almost certainly the main reason for everyone wanting their child to go to Grammar or College now. Until the new St..Sampsons and Beaucamp schools were built there was the argument that the Grammar had better facilities, but that's no longer the case. Bringing the secondary schools up to Grammar's level of discipline and self respect is key to this project.

McTavish

Sounds good - how do you propose that this will be achieved? What tools will be available to the new schools that are not currently available to the leadership of the existing high schools, for example?

Dogwatch

The cane, gym pump and blackboard duster never did me any harm and it taught me to speed up my reactions when a blackboard duster was flying in my direction!

Cher Eugene

"What tools will be available to the new schools that are not currently available to the leadership of the existing high schools, for example?

How about a 24" cane to remind pupils that disobedience results in pain? If you stick your hand in a fire you get painfully burnt, it is natures way of pointing out you are taking a wrong option.

Devil's Advocate

I don't know how it will be achieved - Teachers have had many tools taken away from them in the name of 'ooman rights and political correctness.

Daedalus

I have two children at Secondary school. They are both doing very well. Both children 'failed' their 11+. The older child is predicted the equivalent of A's and A*'s (note: there will be a new GCSE grade system by year 11, It will be grade 1-9, you'll have to look it up). My younger child has received good test results and a good report (too early yet for predicted GCSE grades yet)

Yes, in their classes there are children with less academic ability. Yes, there are children with less drive and focus to achieve. BUT, and this is the important bit, my children understand this. As a parent I understand this.

An A* achieved with a Secondary School education is the same as an A* achieved with a Grammar School education. You could argue that it may be harder to achieve, if some peoples perceptions of unmotivated fellow pupils and lower caliber teachers in Secondary Schools have any truth to them.

Do any of you have children at Secondary schools?

Le Goubert

Can somebody please explain to me why Guernsey children are tested at aged 10 yrs on verbal reasoning and other exercises they were never taught or instructed on during their time at Primary School?

And to make things even worse the 'intelligence' test they take at 10 yrs old does not form any part of their curriculum when they are at Grammar or High School?

Please explain the scientific basis or logic of determining the intelligence of children using this weird method?

And if it is such an excellent method of measuring intelligence why can't youngsters take a GCSE or A Level of in the 11+?

Trudie

Are these rhetorical questions as the reasons why are readily available and grammar school selection in the UK ( which we're so fond of emulating here) operate in the same way.

Trudie

Unless these are rhetorical questions you need to get yourself up to speed Le Goubert and make the effort ( like the rest of us) to find out why as the answers to your questions are readily available. It operates on a similar basis in the UK which we're so fond of emulating.

Le Goubert

Rhetorical questions or inconvenient truths?

And what policy went straight in the bin after the fiasco of Mrs May's mesmerising manifesto?

The 11+ of course!

So Trudie, the States of Guernsey set the trend by dumping a Victorian selection system and the UK duly followed. Please try and keep up!

Trudie

The reason I asked was because the the decision has been made to drop the 11 plus a while back so don't understand the relevance of your comments to Guernsey as of today as we are not moving forward with that system.

Don't worry Goubert, thanks to my education, which I am thankful wasn't subjected to such disruption facing secondary pupils now with no guarantee of improvement on the current system, I can keep up. End of my comments to you.

Elizabeth9

Trudie

You may have given up on Le Goubert, rightly so, but keep on asking questions as the disruption to pupils is going to be massive whatever whitewash is currenty being painted.

Elizabeth9

Le Goubert

Dumping a Victorian selection system? The Victorian era ended in 1901, the 11+ was introduced in 1944 - please try to keep up!

Trudie

Elizabeth 9 thank you I guess it is a matter of asking the right questions! I hear that the Education Board didn't have all the answers to important and relevant questions at Monday nights information session at La Mare

Elizabeth9

Trudie

Th Ed deputies and Ed civil servants did not have answers at any of the meetings as it was abundantly clear that they did not understand the questions - Deputy Meerveld still believes that the sixth form center is a separate entity from the 11-16 school, despite being told on numerous occasions are that science, arts, sport, maths, tech, languages are all taught in the main 11-16 building by the same staff that teach 11-16. The level of ignorance as to how the school is organised and the problems of staffing a separate sixth form is quite staggering - until you realise that the civil servants advising them don't have a clue either. Never mind, as one of them said 'that is just detail'.

Xenomorph

Elizabeth9 - you seem to have forgotten that there are approximately 500 other Post-16 full-time learners taking Level 3 (A Level) arts, sports, maths & tech, IT, health and multiple other subjects and levels and teachers and lecturers are all qualified to teach A Level, IB and anything else the States decide to throw at us up to Level 5

Post 16 College will have approx 900 learners and the Training College will have 300+ apprentices and 2,500 taking part-time, GTA, IHS, etc. Post 16 includes everything and everybody delivering Post 16.

Rupert Walthumstow

Xenomorph, I think the point Elizabeth9 is trying to make that if you're a - for example - maths teacher you will not have a full time table of AS / A level maths in the post 16 school.

So you either work part time or you have to commute between lessons to another school (as Grammar teachers do now but the distance is measured in metres rather than kilometres).

If you are a UK based teacher are you going to move here to do that or just stay in the UK where you can teach 11-18 at one school?

And if you are a local teacher do you decide you're happy to drive between lessons every day back and forth to teach A Levels, work part time, go and teach at the Colleges where you don't have this problem or just quit teaching altogether?

Whilst many teachers (e.g. the current high schools) are comfortable teaching only up to GCSE, many (a lot of Grammar teachers) enjoy teaching the entire range of ages and that opportunity is being made considerably less straightforward.

Elizabeth9

Yay, Rupert, spot on, thank you!

A former Deputy Head at Grammar years ago, when this had previously come up, worked out that to staff a Sixth Form college properly for minority subjects, which include the sciences and languages, the pupil role would have to be 2000 - that is just the academic side.

Xenomorph says that there are sufficient staff and that all can teach A level, IB, BTech etc. Well, only staff at Grammar can currently teach IB as it requires specific (not cheap) training to be registered. Having looked at the C of E website, they do not appear to teach any science or language courses. The BTech Applied Science courses that are available, although not on offer in Guernsey at the moment, have a much lower entry requirement than for an A level even if they are supposed to the equivalent of A levels once completed. Having looked at the content, certainly the Physics component is at GCSE Higher level which is accessed in year 9 and 10 in the new GCSEs. So how does that mean we can staff Science - it maybe just about OK to have a Biologist teaching Physics at GCSE ( although not really for top sets) but not at A level. It is like saying if you can teach French you teach Mandarin -they are both languages after all.....

Le Goubert

Oh dear Elizabeth9 I don't whether your knowledge of Victorian history needs brushing up or your Googling skills.

Scholarship places have been available to academically able children since 1870 at least.

However I do concede the selection process in 1870 was more holistic than the 1944 flawed intelligence (sic) test still used until recently.

Probably why the Conservative Party ditched their policy to reintroduce Grammar Schools despite winning the last election.

Le Goubert

For anyone interested in ancient education history here is one of the many links to the Victorian scholarship/selection system;

http://www.audleyfhs.co.uk/Journal%204/A%20Grammer%20School%20Education.htm

CST

I guess CofE don't teach Languages (Except English and TEFL) or Applied Science because they aren't allowed to. In the same way that the Sixth Form Centre isn't allowed to teach Vocational subjects.

That's why a Tertiary college where kids can pick and choose a mixture of certificates and diplomas and A levels would be so much better on our small island. Many will still choose A levels many others a vocational course but at least they'll have a choice of mixing if they want to.

Entry requirements on Pearson's site are not the same as what's asked for by either Sixth Form or CofE, we were told this year that it's the same, but there may be some flexibility over needing both english and maths for some courses at CofE but all need english at grade C or above. We were told that next year both Sixth Form and CofE will have exactly the same entry requirements for level 3 courses and A levels.

What is wrong with all of you teaching together? Why are we limited here?

Elizabeth9

CST, of course they are allowed to, in the same way that they they are both allowed to teach Business studies, drama, art and media courses. A levels and BTech are very different beasts. The type of student that takes academic A levels will not necessarily want to take vocational BTech and vice vera so having the two options is necessary. This point was made by a member of staff from C of E when the plans were announced. As for being able to mix and match the different types of qualification, this already happens but there is very little demand for it probably, for the reason already given.

Dogwatch

The States believed the civil servants at Education and Deputy Sillers when they were conned into agreeing to the closure of primary schools, which resulted in a grossly overcrowded St Martins Primary, so why should we now believe the latest proposals for secondary education as being right? The "liberal/left" brigade are simply using the island's children as pawns in their pathetic little power game.

LOCALGUERN1066

Absolutely unbelievable some of the comments on here, they are almost Dickensian in their content.

Some people such as 'Dogwatch, in the 21st century, still think it is acceptable to physically assault children by caning or throwing things at them?

Fortunately I don't think you would find any teacher on island who would be willing to assault a child.

'Dogwatch' also comments about the 'mess our primary schools are in'- which ones ? Look at the recent independent validation and inspection reports. They are all good schools at the very least.

We then get comments from 'Le Gourbet' saying that 'verbal reasoning' and 'intelligence testing'are not delivered before the 11 exam is sat. That was the whole point as these tests are there to measure the innate intellectual ability and not the knowledge or facts that children may have learned. However its generally accepted that you can't measure a child's academic ability at 11 and that is why we will no longer have selection.

I know teachers in Grammar and can assure you there are discipline issues in that school that they are just as challenging and difficult as any of the other schools. You would be naive to think that just because someone has brain that they will not be disruptive.

The UK Comprehensive system - of which over 92% of the UK population have been the product of for the last 50 years - has produced the vast majority of our Doctors, Scientists, Lawyers, Engineers, Bankers and Teachers. Many of whom are here now and working and helping us on Guernsey. Do you have a problem with your comprehensive educated Doctor, bank official, vet, or lawyer ? Are they inferior in some way ?

That evidence clearly shows it can't be that bad a system !

jjlehto

"The UK Comprehensive system - of which over 92% of the UK population have been the product of for the last 50 years - has produced the vast majority of our Doctors, Scientists, Lawyers, Engineers, Bankers and Teachers"

Do you have a source to back that up? I speak to a lot of high level bankers on a daily basis, and the vast majority are privately educated. I have a similar experience with lawyers.

jjlehto

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/24/privately-educated-elite-continues-to-take-top-jobs-finds-survey

Sorry old bean, but seems like your statement is not quite accurate....

LOCALGUERN1066

You are completely right but that survey only relates to a few thousand very high flying jobs across certain professions.

But take the 'ordinary' Doctor for instance. There around 166,000 UK trained Doctors with an average age of 39 according to the BMA. Around 7% of UK children attend private school and another 5% are in state Grammar schools which leaves us with about 88% in comprehensive schools. The sheer number of Doctors we have could not be provided by those 12% educated outside the comprehensive system although I fully accept that for all sorts of socio economic reasons it is disproportionately high. The 12% figure is around 700,000 pupils.

Another profession, teaching, of which there are 450,000 in the UK could never be fully manned by those 12% outside comprehensive education. Department of Education figures estimate 94% are from a comprehensive system themselves.

On Guernsey I think it worth remembering that the old boy network is still very much with us even more so than the UK and we have about 35% of children in private schools so you are therefore more likely to come across somebody with that experience than you would in the UK. That may be why you come across more privately educated people in professions on Guernsey

jjlehto

I think i'd rather take the results of the survey as being representative rather than your own "back of a fag packet" calculations!

As for teachers, they are not really in the same league as doctors, lawyers etc when it comes to the level of training and learning that needs to be accomplished.

I don't really speak with many high level bankers on the island frequently enough to know about their education. My point was based on the UK. However you raise an interesting point, and I think the Guernsey comps will struggle to emulate their UK counterparts due to such a high percentage of kids here being privately educated.

peabody

Reading an old Press from march 16th 1973, the Comment from the Editor was that the Education Council wanted to push ahead with the Mare de Carteret because in 1972 there were 836 pupils, 1973 970 pupils & 1976 predicted 1123 at Beaucamp.

Parents viewed their children's attendance at these super establishments with anxiety. It also stated that Guernsey would not be the first place to discover, disturbing social effects from the big school.

LOCALGUERN1066

Peabody - 1973 etc has no relevance to today's needs - different world, different society and soon to be a different education system.

The school leaving age wasn't even 16 then.

In 1973 I didn't use a computer, have a mobile phone and was struggling to understand our new decimal currency. I probably watched on my three channel black and white TV sexist, racist and homophobic rubbish that is totally unacceptable today.

Please let us have relevant and up to date comments.

peabody

My point was parents were worried in 1973 about Education & the need for Mare de Carteret to be built & 44 years later, parents are still worried and want La Mare de Carteret built!

Just like watching repeats of Yes Minister from 1973, same political scenarios coming around today!

The past is always relevant to the future!

LOCALGUERN1066

Peabody - apologies ! I am totally in favour of a LMDC rebuild for many reasons including the fact that the buildings shelf life expired in 2000.

I only wish that people would move on from the 11 plus debate and accept the reality and be positive about what potentially could be good for all children.

Bloke A

I doubt you were watching repeats of Yes Minister from 1973. It didn't start until 1980!

peabody

I was waiting to be pulled up on 1973 for Yes Minister! I would have been too young to appreciate it if it had been produced then, but i did watch it & appreciate it as a teenager in 1980 with my parents. Watching them again, still love them! Nothing changes, same problems, different fashions! (but the fashion will come around to!)

peabody

Localguern, I am a huge fan of the Grammar system & I am extremely sad it was narrowly defeated twice, but I believe it is time to move on. I have a high regard for the Education team, I think they have worked extremely hard over the past few months under huge pressure. I was absolutely appalled at the Deputies who brought the vote of no confidence, none of those who brought it will get my vote in future IWV. It is time for everyone to get behind Education, as they only want the very best for the Islands children and they are happy to take on constructive criticism, everyone will have a view, but yes it is time to move on. The sadness for me is with a 3 school system, staff that have worked as such a tight team to bring schools up, achieving their potentials. Will now probalyhave staff amalgamated & jobs lost. Our dedicated teachers do an amazing job.

LOCALGUERN1066

Peabody - there is absolutely nothing that I would disagree with you in your comments. I was very much in favour of scrapping selection but that is irrelevant now. Of all the schools involved it is LMDC High that I know best and I can assure you, that like most of the staff at Grammar, they have high quality senior staff and teachers who are dedicated and inspirational.

Jobs may or may not be lost and good teachers will leave but with a positive and a trendy 'mindset' I am sure that all the children and staff can look forward to a better education. Naturally there will be issues but that is no reason for not being positive.

InteresTed

The usual load of twaddle and wishful thinking. I'll informed gossip and lack of detailed understanding.

A truly compressive school needs to be large enough to allow setting, and dare it be said, streaming, if education is to be sufficiently tailored. That is really big.

If everyone gets the same - joyous- diet up to ks3, there is no prospect of them catching the accelerated privately educated who go on to fill the top jobs (it's no longer just the old boy network).

Why on earth another school building is required is down to guilt trips and the pantomime need to eradicate all evidence of the hated Grammar. 60M is ridiculous. 100M get real. Shut down the education offices and move those experts in to the existing school buildings (in front of a real class) to reduce class sizes. Less managers more doers.

LOCALGUERN1066

InteresTed - The Grange Education Offices close in about a month so your wish has been granted !

Personally for the reasons you highlight I would have preferred a two school comprehensive model.

Elizabeth9

1066 you misunderstand - Education offices are moving to a different building not closing - I think Ted was suggesting that those staff at the office should actually TEACH not just move to another building - real problems in schools with recruitment but they continue to refuse to help out and fill gaps before other staff can be appointed. A case of 'I will tell you how you should do it, but incapable of doing it myself as too scared and only know theory' .

jjlehto

"Why on earth another school building is required is down to guilt trips and the pantomime need to eradicate all evidence of the hated Grammar. 60M is ridiculous. 100M get real."

This.

It's an absolute joke that the option that doesn't involve rebuilding La Mare is so much more costly. Do Education think we are all idiots?

Island Wide Voting

There is an interesting article on Primary School building costs at …

www.building.co.uk/cost-model-primary-schools/5056116.article

Scroll down to the header 'A typical low cost school' and laid out for all to see is the individual item breakdown costs … roof ... Exterior walls … electrics… plumbing .. Stairs … lifts etc etc for a new-build 630 place primary school with nursery places. Total new-build cost in UK South East £5,990,000

There is also a chart showing the cost weighting for other UK areas e.g Scotland .91 ,Yorkshire .93, Greater London 1.02

No weighting shown for Guernsey but probably something like 4.5 ?

Elizabeth9

jjlehto

Clearly they do! However I hope they will find that the average Guern is not as green as he/she is cabbage looking... as for the deputies that is another matter altogether!

LOCALGUERN1066

Elizabeth9 - you comment that they 'refuse to fill gaps before other staff can be appointed' and that there are recruitment issues but on looking at the all the job vacancies there is only one 0.5 vacant post for an English teacher at Grammar and a teaching assistant vacancy on the whole island.

Teachers have to give a great deal of notice and if someone is off long term sick I assume that it is down to the head teacher to find someone. One of my daughters is on the teachers 'supply list' and gets Headteachers regularly ringing her and offering days or weeks work due to staff illness. She chooses not to work in some schools because of the attitudes of some staff and is very happy to work in other schools. One she will not work in is a high profile school that will be closing soon !

I am not sure how many teachers actually work in the Grange but when looking at the Web site most of the work they do would not involve teachers apart from specialisms such as English as an additional language, autism, hearing and blind. I know all those services are needed and directly teach in all schools. You then have Educational Psychologists, home school welfare officers, transport, building maintenance, accounts, HR, and a few Education Officers who give guidance on overall policy.

I am therefore not sure how many teachers there are in the Education Department who could teach in an emergency.

Lobstertail1

Getting back to the actual story,of course higher achievers will be held back. Given that schools are driven by the magic 5 good GCSE passes including Maths and English,children who are bright won't be stretched as it will be expected they will pass without much help. More help will be heaped on the children who are borderline pass rate.

So Le Pelley thinks that miraculously,less able children will suddenly be more able due to them being with more academically able children.......dream on.....it's just like that old chestnut in England that if you place asbo yobs into neighour hoods with decent people they will change their behaviour for the better.....don't make me laugh...it never happens,it just results in good areas being dragged down.

Education is playing with children's futures,seems like a social experiment,but never mind,if you can afford it you can pay for private education.....isn't that true Deputy Meerveld???????

Election Issues

'Education is playing with children's futures, seems like a social experiment'

The last Education Board was so very keen to push their 'agenda' through at the very last States meeting before the last election.

The last Ed Board in 2014 said.. 'The Board is of the view, however, that, if it were minded, following a public consultation, to take a States Report to the Assembly recommending the removal of selection and moving towards a comprehensive education system, this, by itself will not improve the education standards and outcomes for the Bailiwicks young people'

So how, exactly, are these new proposals going to improve the education standards and outcomes for the Bailiwicks young people? Less educationally able will learn from the the more academically able pupils?? Why exactly should the more academically able not be fully challenged and supported?

Setting? Streaming? Subjects? How?

Private education if parents can afford it?

Elizabeth9

The current plan is for setting 'in some subjects as appropriate' So probably Maths, Science and English - the rest will be a free for all. Always assuming that all the schools are big enough to set anyway, Further maths anyone?

Fig Tree

My thoughts ; ESC were forced to come up with this too quickly after having pressure applied upon them by various deputies keen to see them fail. I have a lot of sympathy for them but are disappointed by the plans put forward.

I was hoping that, if we had to get rid of Grammar ( a very good school in my opinion ), then we could have tried something radical. Instead we have three schools which will be too small for adequate setting and so will not be able to stretch the very able and will find it hard to attract teachers who want to teach all the way through to A level. This latter point because of the separation of the 6th form from age 11 onwards to 18. This is not a good idea in my view but presumably was designed so as not to favour one school above another or to force teachers to move across schools.

We retain catchment areas which I would have loved to have seen go.

I would have liked one big school on two sites with one having a 6th form attached for academic subjects as is currently the case then the aforementioned setting and retention of teachers at all levels would be assured. The whole community would then invest in its success rather than the catchment silo thinking we have at present.

I cannot see now the point of a LMDC rebuild - why is it needed apart from on emotional grounds. Grammar is having to close with little thought given to the subsequent bereavement as if some airbrushing of an embarrassing past is taking place.

Please deputies give ESC more time to come up with something more ambitious than this. They are more than able but need less pressure of time on them. Let's get it right.

Jasperino

Les quennavais school rebuild on news tonight for 800 pupils 40 million. How does that compare like for like to our estimated figure?

Jasperino

To build la mare de carteret

Trudie

I think you have to factor in the "bog" element of the "comp on a bog" as someone else referred to, no disrespect intended to staff or pupils!

Elizabeth9

Localguern

You are corrrect it is the headteachers job to find someone to fill in and not a lot of staff at the Grange are actual teachers. However when a specialist A level teacher is ill with only two months to go before exam time there is not a lot of leeway. These students needed a specialist teacher to teach at high level until the exams were over - not just a baby sitter for a few days. If your daughter had been qualified she would have been contacted, however it seems she would have refused too. I understand that quite a lot of staff had issues with the 11+ but that debate has been put to bed and accepted. Teachers at Grammar are good people trying their best for their pupils. They work with many supply teachers who fortunately are not as prejudiced as you imply your daughter to be.

LocalGuern1066

Elizabeth9 - Please don't think I am having a go at you or Grammar staff - I am not. The circumstances you describe were very unfortunate and to find a specialist A level teacher was obviously going to be a challenge for school and everyone at such short notice.

If there was a teacher on the supply list who could have taught the subject that would have been great but obviously they have every right to say no as it may not fit in with their personal circumstances. After all they only get paid when they work.

If I was Headteacher I would have approached the private colleges to see if something could be done about sharing lessons if the same subject was on offer or possibly paying for a short term paid loan arrangement. Similarly I would have contacted UK supply agencies to see what was available. I assume all that was done but costs and availability would obviously have to be considered. Sometimes a problem can't be solved as unfortunate as that is.

Teachers at Grammar are good people, as is my daughter who has every right to choose where she works, when she works and with whom she works. Thats why she works on supply and having worked in all the Secondary schools including Grammar she knows which ones she prefers to be in. That is no criticism of the Grammar as she simply prefers the challenge and variety of working across a wider ability range. She says it's more stimulating, challenging and demanding. I am not a teacher so I don't know.

Election Issues

'my daughter who has every right to 'choose' where she works, when she works and with whom she works'

Perhaps there are many parents on this island who would like to have exactly the same 'right' to 'choose' a school for their own children. Perhaps they do not want to have absolutely no choice whatsoever.

Parents will only be able to send their children to the school in their catchment area. No choice at all....... unless they can afford to pay for an education at one of the private colleges.

How poor is that in this day and age?????

Rupert Walthumstow

As someone suggested at twitter, why not let the three new schools be island wide and pupils at 11 apply for whichever they want to go to. The nearest school may not be the most convenient (if a parent works near another for example), a sibling may already be there from prior to a house more or after a while one or two may prove to be better/worse for certain subjects or across the board than others, so there will be more demand for those schools.

Rather than having people moving house to try and get into the school, make the process island wide and if one or more is oversubscribed, it becomes a lottery amongst all those applying.

Devil's Advocate

Rupert, how I laughed when the reports came out that the 'highly desirable' Capelles primary school was actually pretty poor compared to the other primaries.

Rupert Walthumstow

Indeed. I always wondered why Capelles appeared so desirable, it never made any sense to me. If the same were to happen at secondary level and a less popular school was more successful I think most parents would be happy to take that option surely!

Le Goubert

Elizabeth9 and Election Issues;

Every year children who who were not selected for the Grammar School sit the entrance exam for the fee paying Colleges.

Can you please explain how during the 60 years of the selection process, how children who were not selected for the Grammar School, and attended the Colleges as fee-payers, negatively impacted on the education of children who were selected for scholarship places?

Is there a streaming process at the Colleges that permanently keeps children not selected for Grammar in separate classes from scholarship students?

Or is it recognised by the teachers at the Colleges that children develop at different stages and it may be possible to educate a scholarship student in the same class as a child who was not selected for the Grammar School?

Paul

Le Goubert. Apart from one or two exceptions there is no prospect for parents waiting for 11plus results before applying to the colleges. For many years the college intakes have been fully taken. Of course they can join the ever longer waiting lists.

Peabody. Good post highlighting the basic differences in philosophy. Another point to note is that the colleges, particularly the feeder primary schools achieve this with a much lower financial cost per pupil.

Trudie

Le Goubert questions and more questions! How about a few answers for a change?! Again the reasons are easily available and would not draw people to the conclusion you seem to want them to make.

If you presume the new system is going to be fine because you think it's just about equality and we've fixed that part then you don't recognise that there are far more deep seated problems with secondary education in Guernsey than just that part.

These are what I'd like to see addressed rather than throwing money at buildings, we've been there and done that already with the shiny new buildings.

Bibbit

Yes. Two shiny new buildings and not so shiny behaviour or results.

Elizabeth9

Le Goubert

You start of by saying that every year students sit an entrance exam to attend the colleges then go on to say 'are they kept seperate from scholarship students.' No they are not, in the case of Ladies (not looked at Elizabeth) the entrance exam is on maths, english and verbal reasoning - basically an 11+ type exam. So fee payers have similar abilities to scholarship students which means that of course fee payers do not have a negative effect on scholarship students, as they have also shown ability.

To be accepted at Melrose, pupils attend for half a day to be assessed on numeracy, literacy and sociaI skills. I believe some people think that if they pay from reception stage their child will automatically move up to senior school. Not so. Ladies web site states 'A pupil who is moving from Melrose to senior school will be required to show an ability to cope with the next stage of College education.' As they have to if they wish to progress to sixth form. However it would be unusual for a student who makes it to year 11 not to be offered a sixth form place because the weak students would have been weeded out earlier on. The Removal or Expulsion policy states that

'If in the opinion of the Principal the conduct or progress of the pupil is not satisfactory, or in the judgement of the Principal the pupil is unwilling or unable to profit from the educational opportunities offered then the parent will be asked to remove the child with no refund of fees. It also states that a pupil may be expelled at any time if the pupils conduct (whether in school or out and whether in or out of term time) is detrimental to college discipline or reputation.

This is basically saying that only pupils who are academic and well behaved will continue at the school. If you are paying large sums of money for your childs education you are going to have a big incentive to make sure your child toes the line.

So, compare the 'on the face of it' comprehensive Ladies College with a comprehensive High School, where the policy of inclusion means that even severly disruptive pupils are in school, where a fair few parents are not even remotely engaged with their childs education. Add to that setting in only core subjects, because the schools won't be big enough for anything else. You are comparing apples with pears.

Le Goubert

Elizabeth9 very difficult to tease out the salient points and summarise your long post but I believe I've got the gist.

Students at the Colleges are not divided and scholarship students and fee paying students who were not selected for Grammar School happily sit in the same classrooms.

So why in a State run education system can't students of scholarship 'ability' sit in the same classroom as a student who would not have been selected for the Grammar School?

Why is the mix of 'abilities' only possible in a fee paying system and not a State run system?

Elizabeth9

le Goubert

Go back and read the last two paragraphs again, also Peabody's post of July 19 7.47am and Bibbit July 19 1.32pm.

I am saying that the ability of scholarship students and fee payers is very similar and that if a child either does not work, cannot keep up or is disruptive they are asked to leave so that the education of the remaining students is not compromised.

I believe that one of things that was promised would be tackled when the 11+ was removed was the problem of disruptive pupils. This has not been done, in fact there is a policy of inclusion. If this were tackled robustly at primary level the problem would be less. Until discipline is sorted people will still pay for the colleges.

Le Goubert

Elizabeth9

And what socially responsible strategy do the Senior Management Teams at the fee paying Colleges adopt when dealing with disruptive students?

Simple, they expel the disruptive students and the State run High Schools have to take them. How jolly!

Elizabeth9

Le Goubert

I agree not very jolly - however it rarely happens because the colleges socially responsible methods of disipline and ethos mean that a child rarely continues to misbehave. However if they do, you are wrong to asume that the student then goes to a High School - the ability which saw them pass either the 11+ or the college entrance exam means they generally go to Grammar.

Look up the Ladies College web site to see their expectations of behaviour and methods of enforcing it. They also expect parents to be on board and to support them if a problem arises. Once the High Schools can achieve this there will be no problem. It really comes back to good old fashioned respect for those in authority and a willingness to engage in being educated.

It used to be that disruptive pupils were removed and taught seperately with a focus on the basics to allow time for work on getting their behavior in order, they would then be returned to mainstream education. The current policy of inclusion means they stay in class and make things difficult for students and staff alike. It only takes one in a class or few in a year group to have serious consequences for the majority of students who want to get on. This, together with the lack of setting in more than the core subjects, are the main reasons people pay for the colleges.

As Deputy Le Pelley and his Commitee have done an about face and now say they think that low achievers are pulled up by higher achievers, we can asume that we will continue to have very little setting in the new system?

peabody

Le Goubert - One of my children went through the Colleges in Primary stage, as the discipline was so poor at the time at their school, bullying was rife, the Head was useless, the staff were fed up & many parents took their children out, including a child of one of the top level of management at the Office!, but the Office did nothing.

The classes were smaller, the children were set by ability. An agreement was signed between the school & parents, that homework would be completed on time. A homework diary was filled in everyday signed by parent & teacher. Presentation of work was important, titles underlined, projects set out in a clear concise manner, handwriting worked on, manners & respect extremely important. Uniform, to be proud of & worn appropriately. Class room assistants in ever year, allowing the teacher to do their job & teach, rather than 2 for the whole primary school. The teachers were given the time & left to get on and do their jobs under their department manager,without constant reporting back to the office. Children were weekly tested & problems given extra attention. Boundrys set. It was a total new experience as parents, everyone worked together to get the child where they needed to be, but also giving a teacher the resources they needed to get on & teach. This is not a criticism of the States system, this is just trying to explain the difference in experience between the 2 systems & maybe show how the Colleges manage to get such consistent good results, with children who may not be in the top 25% ability set. Total focus from the child, the parent & the school.

Bibbit

Peabody - fantastic post. My child achieved a scholarship to College and this was exactly how it was when there. THAT is what they should be doing at the high schools to encourage more public confidence in them.

It doesn't matter WHAT the future 3 schools are called, it's the behaviour, respect, discipline, support from all involved parties, and ultimately the results that people want from a school. It's why they take the 11+ or pay for a private education to avoid (yes avoid) the high schools. Or whatever they want to call them. A name will not change the goings-on in a school.

Daedalus

I have two children at Secondary school. They are both doing very well. Both children 'failed' their 11+. The older child is predicted the equivalent of A's and A*'s (note: there will be a new GCSE grade system by year 11, It will be grade 1-9, you'll have to look it up). My younger child has received good test results and a good report (too early yet for predicted GCSE grades yet)

Yes, in their classes there are children with less academic ability. Yes, there are children with less drive and focus to achieve. BUT, and this is the important bit, my children understand this. As a parent I understand this.

An A* achieved with a Secondary School education is the same as an A* achieved with a Grammar School education. You could argue that it may be harder to achieve, if some peoples perceptions of unmotivated fellow pupils and lower caliber teachers in Secondary Schools have any truth to them.

Do any of you have children at Secondary schools?

Trudie

Apologies if this is a duplicate internet connection lost mid post.

I am very pleased for you that your children are achieving such good results at a high school, I would be even happier if they were the norm but sadly the results don't lie ( notwithstanding the grammar school pupils results are separate) despite the considerable investment in buildings and resources, La Mare had the best results despite their surroundings.

I have not heard anything about lower caliber teachers, indeed the teachers I know are quite the opposite however if there are underperforming teachers they are more difficult to remove under the States system rather than at a private school.

How do you explain the results from the high schools?

Daedalus

"How do you explain the results from the high schools?"

Easily. How many plumbers electricians, laborers, carpenters, housekeepers, roofers, mechanics, gardeners, retail assistants etc etc does Elizabeth/Ladies College and the Grammar produce?

Would you not imagine the less academically inclined (not less intelligent per se) but less academically incline would, in general, be educated at the secondary schools?

Would you expect all of those students with those probable future careers achieving, or wanting/needing to achieve A averages?

Answered.

Le Goubert

Peabody and Trudie, I fully appreciate and understand the philosophy of the Colleges but yet again no one can answer my questions!

Here they are again.

Q1 Do the Colleges have students who were not selelected for Grammar School in the same class as a student who was awarded a scholarship place?

Q2 If the answer to Q1 is 'yes' what was the impact on the educational attainment of the Scholarship students?

Q3 If the 11+ Selection Tests are an accurate measure of a child's intelligence and future capabilities, why don't they form any part of the curriculum at Primary or Secondary School?

Q4 Why after winning the UK General Election did Theresa May remove the reintroduction of Grammar Schools? (this is relevant to the Guernsey debate as the Policy to reintroduce Grammar Schools happened just as the States voted to scrap selection and was frequently cited as a reason to maintain the selection process in Guernsey).

And Trudie, yes I do have the answers as well as posing questions.

Quite simply Google the effectiveness of selecting children at the age of 10 before their brains have fully developed and their true capabilities can be determined.

http://11plustruth.org.uk/index.php/2016/09/18/misallocation-eleven-plus/

Felix

1 yes they do and in fact my daughter was in the top two sets sitting ably next to the scholarship kids. Top set for science so could do the three sciences at GCSE something not possible at the high school she was selected for ( got straight As and A*s) top set for English As) and set two for maths (A) the rest was mixed ability. So much for selection at 11? She got 8 A*s and As and 2 Bs not bad for a 'fail' at 11!

Trudie

Happy for you, were her results in any way connected to the school she went to or was it just down to developing later?

Would you be happy to say that she would achieve the same results in the new State education system going forward?

Felix

Yes because the system going forward will better meet her abilities as she develops, not deny her opportunities such as the triple science option as it currently does. LC is fine but didn't really give the rounded wider social exposure one needs to function in the real world, Hopefully the new system will provide greater parity in the curriculum offering, setting according to ability and the social exposure all children need to prepare them for the world outside the school gates

Elizabeth9

Felix

One of the reasons for not having an 11-18 school is supposedly equality for 11-16 pupils. You assume that all three High Schools will be equal. However with 3 schools at 600, 840 and 960, the larger schools will have more options at KS4. The High Schools already have vastly different curriculums,mainly due to size. They also study different exam boards even when the same subjects are provided. The Federation was supposed to sort this. However once meetings began in order to agree which exam boards to follow it soon became abundantly clear that that one size does not fit all. For example students at Grammar now follow a science course which includes a high amount of 'required' hands on practicals - they have to be done in order to gain a grade. The UK Gov and STEM had realised that for many, practical work was being replaced by teacher demos or youtube clips. The Highs realised that this course would not work for them and do courses such as IGCSE which do not require this. Nothing wrong in that but it cannot be assumed that all schools will be equal in the brave new world. Unequal sized schools and catchement areas will ensure they are not.

peabody

Le Goubert - we are all different with different thoughts on education & how we would like our children educated.

All we can do is the best for our children, giving them the love of reading from an early age. Reading at bedtime & encourage them to have a curious mind.

All that matters is that the child is happy & confident at whatever school they attend, which costs nothing, but has huge positive results.

Fig Tree

Tim, your post, as usual is something else! Mr James has certainly rattled your cage

hasn't he ? Could it be that a teacher is actually saying something you don't want to

hear ?

I am very keen to listen to his views as I hold him in the highest regard ; as a

maths teacher he was exceptional and as leader of the 6th form he was

thoroughly competent.

So, yes, when he says he has doubts about the lack of 11-19 learning in one

school , I listen. Shame you don't .

peabody

To be fair to Tim FigTree, I for one have no knowledge of Tims qualfications & experience working in Education, but I am sure he has more qualifications & working knowledge than anyone on the Education Committee or overseeing the 6th Form, a consultant presumably?. I cannot imagine anyone making such scathing personal remarks on a topic they have no personal working experience of.....surely?

Island Wide Voting

Seems not to be the case Peabody

According to Linkedin Tim's experience in education appears to be limited to being a pupil at LMDC,Grammar and Plymouth College of Art & Design

He is presently the Senior Digital Manager at Specsavers. No problem in having strong views but perhaps he should've gone to charm school

peabody

IWV- Not a staggering amount of expertise...?

jjlehto

I am not sure if that is the same Tim Langlois?

peabody

I would wager a bottle of Wheadons it is! ;)

jjlehto

Sorry Peabody but it's not the same person.

peabody

Do you mean to say there are 2 Tim R Langlois? That would indeed be a sad day for Guernsey!

jjlehto

I don't think nice Tim from Specsavers uses an R.

peabody

Tim R Langlois is a Douzenier at St Pierre du Bois, he is I believe on the Douzaine Council, he is on the Committe of the Mare de Carteret School, he is/was on the Grammar PTA, he does have a brother in the States. I do not know where he works as I have never knowingly spoken to him, but am sure wherever it is, he must be a bundle of fun and I cannot imagine that he represents his employers views or the views of any other organisation he sits on as a member.

I cannot imagine he works in any high position or has had previous experience in Education.

Island Wide Voting

Only Tim R can clear up this imbroglio to save the other 'innocent' Tim from getting it in the neck from his neighbours

What are the chances that he will?

Elizabeth9

peabody

I do love a spot of irony!!